User talk:Proxima Centauri

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I’m lonely here as nobody has spoken to me yet. Proxima Centauri 03:03, 24 July 2009 (CDT)

Awww. There, there. --Kazim 11:46, 31 July 2009 (CDT)
<irony>Thanks for being so understanding. </irony> Proxima Centauri 01:04, 1 August 2009 (CDT)
Glad to see there are some folks who actually use the chat functions on these wiki pages. I mostly just edit, but I guess I'll have to check them. Off hand, you wouldn't happen to know if there's any way to encode formal logic on this page, would you? The standard wiki form doesn't work. - JStein (8:49, 9/13/2011)

I see you started a WOTM program review. *Big hugs* I have made multiple requests for help on RW, YouTube, and TWL. You are the first person to give a helping hand. Thanks mate, I really appreciate it. Wolf 15:25, 6 October 2011 (CDT)

Contents

Multiverse

Any chance that we could not use the Multiverse "theory" here? It's currently an untestable claim that has no evidence to support it, not a scientific theory. I certainly agree that it's possible, but until we have a way of detecting other universes, it's an irrational claim and not suitable for use in counter-apologetics. Jdog 09:36, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

I think the mustiverse theory prevents God being proved. Proxima Centauri 11:10, 7 October 2011 (CDT)
It does no such thing. The multiverse concept (please provide scientific evidence for the claim or stop calling it a theory) simply moves the problem up one level; a theist just has to claim that "God caused the multiverse to exist" and you're back where you started, plus you've added another unprovable claim to the mix. If anything, the concept of parallel universes could potentially be used to explain the conflicts between omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence. Jdog 20:54, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

I’ve taken it out as the issue is not worth so much trouble and I risk getting behind with refuting Ray Comfort. In my opinion the Muliverse is valid against Kalam because Kalam explicitly states, “Everything that starts to exist needs a cause and the Multiverse didn’t necessarily , start to exist. I agree the Multiverse does not work against general first cause arguments. Proxima Centauri 02:35, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

Ray Comfort

Ray Comfort is, as they say on the Non-Prophets, an ASSHAT (anyone playing the Non-Prophets drinking game?). Pretend i said all this in an Australian pirate accent so it counts as six drinks if you are. Anyway, lets all unite against creationist asshats. I'm just doing some minor editing, correcting some spelling mistakes, maybe adding a sentence or two when needed. Does anyone else visit this site, or are the fundie asshats trying to get rid of us? SOMEONE TELL ME HOW TO USE THE CHAT, i just did this by clicking edit on your page, then inserted my username how everyone else's was. WhatsAGoodUsername? 0334, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

You can find out how active the site is by Clicking this link, alternatively you can click Recent changes 3 lines below the picture of the chariot and horses near the top left hand side of the page. To talk a user you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the Userpage and to talk about an article you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the article.

This is an atheist website and Christians can’t stop us being ungodly here, see Iron Chariots Wiki:Neutral point of view. Feredir28 has been working very hard helping refute Ray Comfort as have others. Proxima Centauri 07:04, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

Okay, thanks. You're on here too much, all the edits I see are from me, you, and two other people. Kazim and Sans Deity need to start "plugging" this site on the Non-Prophets and the Atheist Experience more, we need more people! WhatsAGoodUsername?

Spam/vandalism

Lol, when I tried saving one of those marked as spam, I was told you had just deleted it. <impolite>Don't you have a life either?</impolite>

Is there no way we can upgrade the MediaWiki software? The latest version should make user-management, and thus spam-prevention, within easier reach. Sure, it will add some bureaucracy to new user creation, but won't it be worth it?

You could try asking, Sans Deity, he's the site owner. Proxima Centauri 05:24, 8 October 2011 (CDT)
I see he's probably too busy. Especially as an upgrade, apparently ANY upgrade beyond the current version, would require an upgrade of PHP. Which looks like it would involve the ISP...
Something tells me that the most effective solution would be to find a new ISP, export and import, and then transfer the domain name to the new site. All of course without stealing the domain from Sans Deity.
Isn't this interesting? I didn't even know there was a forum. How much more work would that involve?
I can feel myself giving up here. --BronzeDome 05:53, 9 October 2011 (CDT)

Bother... I think I'll leave you to it. I'll stick to fixing typos... --BronzeDome 02:31, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

He's going to get to it after wedding season. Be patient please, no coup is required. --Kazim 15:05, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

I think the computer must have delayed before you found out I'd deleted that stuff. While I'm checking regularly I don't need delete templates but if ever I can't check for any reason delete templates will be very useful. Any admin who gets to delete just needs to go to Category:Pages for deletion and find a bunch of articles all together ready to delete. Proxima Centauri 10:12, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

Clean up

I rolled back some changes and I don't have time to monitor and fix everything. I've been getting complaints about some regulars adding sloppy speculation and changing the site from informative to a personal, sloppy, speculative bitch-slapping of apologists. Dig through your changes....and wherever you've added unfounded accusations, speculations or snide comments - remove them. I'm going to check back after the wedding and if there aren't improvements, I'll be locking the site down, upgrading it and changing policies and permissions. This isn't a place to talk shit about apologists or post things that might cause unnecessary problems. You CANNOT simply toss around accusations about financial motivations - that leads to legal problems, and I'd prefer if people didn't post sloppy arguments. Sans Deity 01:22, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

First, my thanks to Proxima about AtheistWiki, but before we go there mate, we have work to do. I will go through all my material on Ray Comfort - that includes the programs, books, and main page. Nobody here meant harm, but we will not be divide over this issue and continue to work together. Wolf 13:03, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

I haven’t got time to go through your edits and I’m going to bed soon, I’ve had an infection recently. On this wiki are writers who’ve done really good hard hitting stuff about the Problem of evil and other difficult topics. Please write nothing here that could offend those writers or which those writers may not like. You can write snark and offensive stuff at RationalWiki or Atheism Wiki, just don’t break any libel laws. Proxima Centauri 13:42, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

  • I appreciate the fixes. Please take a moment to check out the newly added "types of pages" section under Iron Chariots Wiki:Editing guidelines for a little more guidance in how pages ought to look. --Kazim 18:16, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

Atheist groups in ...

I suggest merging all those Atheist groups in some-country-or-state pages into one List of atheist groups page, organised, naturally, by continent, country and state. The current state of myriad miniature "articles" seems... silly.

May I? BronzeDome 07:02, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

Please ask Kazim or Sans Deity, both know more about this wiki than I do. Proxima Centauri 09:36, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

Yes please. --Kazim 15:04, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

Praise and Glory to the FSM!

What do you think of the edit I did on the page about the FSM? We need a War on Christmas page, but I'm going to sleep, its 3 Am(pacific time)WhatsAGoodUsername?

I like it but what the established administrators like counts for more here than what I like. Proxima Centauri 06:17, 7 November 2011 (CST)

PLEASE CHECK MY NEW PAGE ON RICK PERRY. It needs more info, linked to my sources in the page, sorry i dont have time to look at my sources more and post more info, it is DAMNED important this gets up and running, as it might prevent another crazy religious president like Bush. One was enough. WhatsAGoodUsername?

I have no problem about the article on Rick Perry but please check with Sans Deity as he is the site owner. I suggest writing mainly material demonstrating that Perry’s position on religion is irrational as this wiki is primarily about countering irrational religion. I suggest checking the sources in the RationalWiki article for information but here you should write respectfully. Googling rick perry+religious nut will get you information that will sometimes need rewriting respectfully. Googling rick perry+religious+irrational will get information that won’t need rewording respectfully so often. I also suggest that you look for websites where political material is expected.

I’m from the UK and I don’t fully understand American politics, I personally fear Mitt Romney because he stands the biggest chance of defeating Obama as far as I know. Mitt Romney flip flops so much nobody knows what he would do as president. RationalWiki accepts articles about all relevant issues over the 2012 U.S. Presidential Election and has articles about most of the possible Republican runners, you can register there and add to articles or write new ones but not all the editors are polite or well behaved. Proxima Centauri 02:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

I'm from Canada (different time zones suck) and i dont think if i put the bit about the N.A.R. by itself it would really do anything......however, if it is linked to rick perry, then people will notice (hopefully....). i know sans deity is the site owner, i joined this site because i heard about it from some old episodes of the non prophets. My source is legitimate, as it is from national public radio, and it seems unbiased. i dunno, just put it up there because it seems to have some relevance to me.what's your personal opinion of those N.A.R. folks? anyways, let me know if you need help deleting spam, i have some free time on my hands. Right now, i think this website is a damn good reference, dont you agree? WhatsAGoodUsername?

I don't need help deleting spam as only administrators can delete. I don't know much about the N.A.R. Do you mean the New Apostolic Reformation? I know no more about them than what's in the Wikipedia article. Proxima Centauri 03:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

Yes, thats what i meant, the youtube video i linked is part of a series by that user that goes into detail about their beliefs (the npr article i posted,Link was great too, but less in detail and colorful, as well as being worth less laughs) , and how bat shit crazy they are. for the love of spaghetti, they think oprah is the freakin antichrist! they should cover that crap on the Non-Prophets, it would get so many laughs! i mean, they are the new spanish inquisition without the torture and censorship (at the moment), and they are trying to gain popularity? thats like another hitler staging rock concerts!WhatsAGoodUsername?

So, whats religion like in the U.K.?WhatsAGoodUsername?

We have some street corner evangelists but most people in Britain are apathetic about religion or skeptical. Proxima Centauri 02:07, 11 November 2011 (CST)

Just like here. I know two and only two christian people under 20. ahhh religion, die already.

Been lotsa spam lately huh?

WhatsAGoodUsername?

I fear the spam will continue till one of the top administrators gets as CAPTCHA. Proxima Centauri 01:11, 13 November 2011 (CST)

Meh, it just shows how morally "superior" theists are.WhatsAGoodUsername?

Proposal for Ray Comfort articles

Hi Proxima,

I'd like to make a modest proposal regarding the large amount of work you've done on all of Ray Comfort's works. I'm still having the feeling that you're seeing Iron Chariots as a private sandbox to go after Comfort's entire body of work, and the articles you're generating are coming in too fast for anybody to review them, or perhaps even read them. They don't seem to be strongly cohesive integrated with the rest of the site, the main focus of which is to be a resource for specific arguments with organized responses. However, here's my alternate suggestion.

A more focused website that is centered around your special interest in Ray would probably be a very useful and more appropriate resource. Call it whatever you want, make it as polemic and opinionated as you want. Make it the official "I Hate Ray Comfort" site if you like. Heck, "ihateraycomfort.com" is available, and I'm sure you could come up with other variations that suit your intentions. You seem like somebody who knows how to set up a website, but if not I'd be happy to recommend resources for getting started, and if necessary, help migrate those articles to HTML pages.

I'd be more than happy to have one main article about Ray Comfort which, in addition to providing short explanations and links to his common arguments, also links to your site. You could include a paragraph-long blurb in the links section saying how thorough and extensive it is, and you would have full creative control over it without my (I'm sure) annoying meddling.

What do you say? --Kazim 08:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Plus, you'd avoid my criticism when I actually do read one or two of the RC articles here. Thanks for removing the gay stereotyping from the "convert your family!" WotM episode review, though. Jdog 10:32, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir did most of the work, I don't want to remove what he wrote. Proxima Centauri 12:03, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Maybe you could start something jointly? --Kazim 12:26, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Thank you for inviting me to this discussion. My thoughts on Kazim's idea are mixed. When I first arrived on IronChariots, I was aware that it was used to confront specific theistic arguments, but when I saw that IC had only 4 review/critiques of Ray's programs and barely a paragraph for one of his books, I thought perhaps there was a little more to IC. At the time, I thought the least I could do was muster some time and man-power to expand IC operations. Now, while I am sure my time and hard work is much appreciated, the thought of having a website is intriguing but an unsure feeling keeps creeping around me.

Proxima, would it be more suiting if we moved all our work (both yours and mine) to Atheism.wiki or would an independent website created by the both of us be more suiting? If the conclusion would be a website, the next difficult part is to make something "uniqueness" I guess. Several rationalist websites confront Ray Comfort (such as forums like WeAreSMRT and the Rational Response Squad) but none of them give a "walk through" of Ray's materials, pointing out and documenting every flaw in Ray's material. For my own two cents: if I had my own website confronting creationists, it would not focus entirely on Ray Comfort. But before I go any further into that, we must first decide if a website would be the best option, and if it would be the case, I would do what I can to contribute. If not, we will work things out. What say you? Wolf 13:22, 15 November 2011 (CST)

It seems that Proxima has already moved a lot of the material I always wished to preserve the most to Atheism.wikia, for which I am most grateful (and soon I will be a user to contribute more). The question of the website still remains open, where Proxima and I (and possibly more) can both decide how to format whatever as we see fit. Wolf 13:35, 15 November 2011 (CST)
Now that Wolf's spoken up, I feel that there's a misinterpretation of "refuting specific theistic arguments". Ray doesn't make new theistic arguments in each of his works, he simply repeats the same arguments over and over (sometimes with minor variations). Once you've made pages for argument from design, personal revelation, and fear of hell, then made appropriate redirects to them (banana argument to argument from design, for example), you've got his entire body of work almost completely refuted. Having a page about him where it lists the specific arguments he makes and links to pages about those arguments is a good thing. Jdog 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

For several years Atheism Wiki has stagnated because I thought working to build up this site and RationalWiki would help the cause more. Recently I decided working more on Atheism Wiki is worthwhile because this wiki caters for intellectuals and RationalWiki is becoming steadily more intellectual. Nobody is catering for less intellectual types like high school students with religious doubts.

This is your website, it’s your choice whether you keep the Way of the Master Series or not. I’m sorry that you want to delete it because Google ranks it very high on the first page. Proxima Centauri 14:08, 15 November 2011 (CST)

It’s up to you, Feredir if you want to do your own blog, I’m more experienced with wikis but learning how to do a blog could be interesting. I plan to work hard on refuting Ray Comfort on Atheism Wiki for 3 reasons.

  1. I already know how to work with wikis.
  2. Transferring work from one wiki to another is quick and relatively little needs doing to refit the material.
  3. On a wiki there is always the chance other people with bad experience of Ray Comfort will join the wiki and help us. Proxima Centauri 14:17, 15 November 2011 (CST)
I agree with you Proxima regarding working on a wiki. I too would prefer to work on a wiki since I already know how to do it. I already have my own blog, but I prefer working on wikis like RationalWiki, and info travels faster I think that way since anyone can take the time to contribute and spread the word. I like the sense of teamwork, which is why I helped create TWL Wolf 14:30, 15 November 2011 (CST)

An unsure feeling keeps creeping around me too, I’m sure together we can make material on Atheism Wiki presentable, how long will it take before Google picks it up?

I agree we should deal with other fundamentalists as well as Ray Comfort. Feredir lives relatively near to Ray Comfort and has first-hand experience of his influence. So I thought, “OK, let’s spend six months or so refuting Ray Comfort, when we’ve dealt with Ray and Kirk exhaustively we can consider doing something else." My 2 cents are that the first priority should be to get The Way of the Master complete because red links in the template look bad. Once that’s completed, we can start work debunking other fundamentalists. Proxima Centauri 14:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

What term are you googling to see ICW on the first page? The only one I saw when I just tried a few was "Ray Comfort", at the bottom. I think you underestimate people who have religious doubts and do them a disservice by thinking of them as "less intellectual", which would help explain why your approach to refuting RC's work is so odd. Jdog 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)
I've already pointed out several times that Google collects data on individual users and tailors their results to what it thinks you want to see. Just because you see it first in the results doesn't mean that anyone else does. I don't even see it on the first page. --Kazim 16:49, 15 November 2011 (CST)
Another thing I want to check on is, did you create the atheism wikia page? If not, have you checked with the creators in advance to see if it fits their style guidelines? I'd hate for you to waste a bunch of additional work. That's one reason why I suggested that a personal web page (neither a wiki nor a blog, but a privately maintained and organized collection of articles) might be the way you want to go. --Kazim 16:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir and I both think people who've viewed a WOTM video should be able to find a refutation of that video. Also people who want to know what is in a WOTM video without watching it should be able to find the information. It's not up to you what we do on our own website. Proxima Centauri 15:02, 15 November 2011 (CST)

I'm not telling you what to do on your own website (why are you continuing to discuss it on this website, anyway? Do you or Feredir not have e-mail?), we crossposted because you write your replies over multiple posts instead of making use of the "show preview" button. My reply was aimed at your claims that the WotM refutations cater to "less intellectual" people, because if you're doing this with the idea that you're an intellectual and that you're writing for the benefit of people of lesser intelligence, you're just turning atheism into a form of "white man's burden" and failing at the very goal you're trying to achieve by doing all these refutations in the first place. Your work is getting bumped from RationalWiki and here because you refuse to see that. Jdog 17:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Deletions and restorations

I understand (from the thread above) that there have been problems with the Ray Comfort related articles lately, but why have you deleted articles that had extensive content before you even edited them? For example, you deleted (and I just restored) The Beauty of a Broken Spirit—Atheism (Way of the Master), The Firefighter (Way of the Master), and even Template:Wayofthemaster, all of which were originally created and heavily edited by the founders of this wiki (and other administrators). In other words, those articles were not "yours to delete". I've restored all of them to their respective states before you and/or Feredir28 first edited them (since I assume your intention was to remove your and his contributions, and you just got a bit sloppy doing that). You also deleted The Satanic Influence (Way of the Master), which neither of you ever edited in the first place. A quick glance through the deleted content didn't reveal anything inappropriate, so I've restored that article, too. I didn't restore any articles you or Feredir28 created. - dcljr 05:21, 21 November 2011 (CST)

OK Proxima Centauri 08:13, 21 November 2011 (CST)
Hi Dcljr, please check the bottom of the talk page on Ray Comfort. I requested that the reorganization happen, my preference is to cut down on / relocate the articles specifically addressing individual apologists' bodies of work. --Kazim 11:08, 21 November 2011 (CST)
Hmm. I still don't see where you suggested that all the articles be deleted, only particular contributions to them. Feel free to re-delete the articles, if you feel that's best. - dcljr 14:00, 21 November 2011 (CST)
I think you, Kazim and the other senior administrators should decide among yourselves what to do. I'm tired of all this. I'm tired of Jdog regularly making us angrier than we were before we read his comments. I'm tired of weeks of hard work followed by being told off by Kazim, Jdog and others. I'm tired of senior administrators leaving the wiki alone for long periods without saying what they want, then blaming Feredir and me when things are not their liking. That's the one and only time so far that I can remember when I've agreed with Jdog over anything important.
I've copied what matters to Feredir and me to Atheism Wiki and it is up to you what you do here. Proxima Centauri 15:18, 21 November 2011 (CST)
I haven't had time to consider this but my first suggestion is to leave things as dcljr left it. I suspect Kazim and I were wrong to get everything deleted, the next phase in this argument could easily be that the authors of deleted material, (not by Feredir and me) will complain. Then the dispute could escalate with Jdog making criticisms all round. At least let's leave things as they are for a week or so to give cooling off time and to give the senior administrators time to think and discuss the issue. As I said I'm not keen to be involved further. Proxima Centauri 16:35, 21 November 2011 (CST)
(Apologies for continuing this on your talk page, but...) FWIW, I don't consider myself a "senior administrator". The only valid distinction, IMO, is between regular admins and bureaucrats. I don't know who EnthusOcn is, but the other 3 bureaucrats are the ones who founded the wiki in the first place, so they should decide what they want to do with it. I would point out, however, that four articles have been "featured" on the Main Page for years now, all point-by-point refutations of individual apologetical works. Are we not doing that anymore? This should be discussed on-wiki somewhere; I suggest Iron Chariots Wiki talk:Editing guidelines#What are we doing here?, since this obviously has implications for what we want to say on that project page. - dcljr 17:54, 21 November 2011 (CST)
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