Discussions with Theists
So this girl that is a friend of a friend messages me the following on Facebook because I commented negatively on my friend's pro-Christian status.
feel free to explain yourself... I can see that you are atheist according to facebook and I wonder why? Isn't there soo much proof to show that there must be AT least some form of higher power??... Now, i have a few friends who have become atheist because of the way they have been treated by other Christians. I, myself, admit that there are some Christians out there who are soo judgmental and think of themselves as if they were the big deal. I generally despise those type of people. and find this quite disappointing... :/ and religion overall has become this struggle of defining what rules you need to follow and what things you need to do to in order to be "safe" or "spiritual," in my opinion I think religion itself has missed the point of building a personal relationship with Jesus. To a certain extent is simple... There are so many things to say but this is my little "speech" for tonight. now, i would be glad to hear/ read what you have to say so feel free. I will take no offense to what you say, I promise. OH remember also that I am not perfect and all knowing so I might not even have answers to questions that you might ask... :)
My response to this
I disagree with your friends' becoming atheists on account of the way they were treated. That's not typical of most of us who have actually thought about it. Most of us actually just require evidence that is demonstrable. There is no evidence of a Gods' existence one way or another. You believe because you want to, or it makes you feel good, but you don't actually KNOW that God is there. If you do claim to KNOW that God is there, then I'd have to ask you HOW you KNOW He is there. You are an atheist too, if you are being honest, to every other of the THOUSANDS of other Gods that have ever been worshiped by people on this planet. The difference between us is I go one God further. Don't you think it's quite arrogant of you to claim that YOUR GOD is the ONE TRUE God? Except you're not really claiming that because none of you worship your God anymore... Most of you worship Jesus: A man. ‘But he's also God,’ one might claim and indeed he does say that “My father and I are one,” but they are still separate beings. Catholics believe that he LITERALLY is God in the flesh, but that's even more ridiculous to me. Basically what it gets down to it, you are believing in God, because somebody else told you to, and if you don't you'll get to burn for eternity in a place called Hell, which didn't exist in the Old Testament by the way. I wonder if that has something to do with your Zombie Holy Man Jesus.
I said, that your God has a sense of humor, because if your religion is at all true... Which if we're going by the bible, it is clearly not the case. It has been blasted out of the water every single time in terms of standing up on its on in science. I digress... If your religion is true, then your God must have a sense of humor, because he requires that you believe in Him with no evidence, except a book, which has countless other books just like it, and is not backed up historically by any other culture anywhere at any time BUT WAIT IT GETS BETTER! He also requires that you obey him and his rules without question and also makes it such that you could do this without realizing it (at least if we pick and choose like all modern Christians do), but still get sent to Hell because you didn't accept Christ.
Your God is an idiot too. It's funny how he didn't have any knowledge beyond that of the people of the age huh? Anyways, any ALL KNOWING ALL POWERFUL being that makes a system as such that evil wins by default is absolutely evil himself or just plain fucking batshit stupid. (You can not be both omniscient and omnipotent, it doesn't work. You would have to be one or the other, and you think your God is both and also omnipresent [presuming you're a typical Christian]). Look, just take into consideration that there are 30,000 different sects of Christianity alone. And YOU think YOUR flavor is right? Cute.
I know based on the bible, that your God is evil. He kills more people and causes far more suffering than Lucifer/Satan, and for very poor reasons if any at all. The God of the Old Testament is completely abhorrent, and very obviously NOT all powerful like He and Christians, claim He is. He made us in his image, correct? He saw that we were “good” as with everything else he created out of nothing (which you can neither demonstrate nor prove, and even if you could, you would then have to explain how God got here), am I right? And He is all-knowing and everywhere at all times yes? Then He KNEW when He made humans that the serpent would trick Eve into eating of the forbidden fruit (which you would think would not exist at all, or be far out of reach of the humans, were your God truly loving), so if He knew we would fall, and MADE IT SUCH THAT WE HAD TO, then your God is the evil one. No God of mine, is one that would have me apologize to Him for being the way He supposedly made me, and expect me to live up to a standard that we will NEVER be able to stand up to. That is EVIL. No person should be told that they aren't good enough, not ever, no matter what. If you tell me that I am full of sin by being simply born, then FUCK YOU. You are the one casting judgment on me before I have even done anything or even laid eyes upon you. And don't hide behind your BOOK and say it's your God's judgment, not yours, because IF YOU BE OF HIM AND ALL OF HIS LAW, THEN YOU TAKE IT AS YOUR OWN BY DEFAULT.
You claim you build a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, but you do not and will NEVER have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. See, the thing with relationships, PERSONAL, relationships, is that they have to be two-way. You can't one-way street that motherfucker. You could say that his words from fuck-all are where you draw this “relationship” from, but that is still not a relationship. You need to be able to ask the other person in the relationship questions, which you can do, but they also must be able to answer, which Jesus cannot in all cases. If you do hear a voice in your head when you pray, I seriously suggest you get help, because that is a serious mental illness.
And I know that no matter what I say, it's not going to rock the boat with your belief, with all probability. That's also why I didn't put anything on that status anymore. (The main reason was that I didn't wish to hurt anybody.) The problem with you people is that you don't listen to any other point of view, at least not openly. You aren't going to question your faith because of me using logic. This is because it is founded deep in your psyche, and emotion. I recommend you read the bible cover to cover, and don't make excuses for your God when he claims the lives of innocent people.
No just person/being, takes the life of someone for another persons' crimes. That is exactly what you claim Jesus did. I believe that if there is a God, then good people will receive reward, and I also believe that God would look better on somebody like me, who takes their actions in the course of his life as my own. I DID THAT. I cannot say that I did not. And if I was wrong, then I should take the punishment I deserve. However, your God punishes us for eternity for finite crimes. That's also Evil. You however, believe that as long as you accept Jesus, that you will get into heaven, because he's already taken your sins on himself. Well, that's cute, but where's your accountability? Also, this was done thousands of years ago, you had no say in the matter, so to say that anybody owes Jesus anything is complete and utter bullshit. If the God of the Bible turns out to be the true God, I would sooner spit in His face, than worship Him: though I would be an Atheist no more, because He clearly exists. I would rather BURN IN HELL FOREVER, than BOW before such a disgusting being with no respect for human life whatsoever and a moral code that both you and I, are superior to.
If you believe that your God is always loving, then explain why He kills at all. I just can't see how death and destruction is GOOD. How is it good for those He destroyed? Find the good in being killed and tortured for all eternity and justify how the larger percent OF THE WORLD, is destined to be burned forever. EXPLAIN TO ME HOW WONDERFUL PEOPLE WHO DESERVE NOTHING BUT LOVE AND RESPECT GET TO GO TO HELL BECAUSE THEY DO NOT WORSHIP YOUR MAGIC SKY-DADDY?!? I'm sorry if I seem a little angry, but I am and have every right to be. Some of my friends believe as you do, and this holds back our friendship. I think we can both agree that if I were to tell you that: you are worthless and will never live up to the expectations of Charles the invisible intangible pink unicorn in my back yard, whom I worship because of the UNICORNIUM (a holy book which explains the awesome nature of Charles), and that Charles will punish you forever and ever after you die without end unless you accept him as your savior and the best looking unicorn in all of the world; I think then we can agree that you would probably take offense and get upset at me at suggesting that there was something wrong with you which you could not even control, AND you'd probably find my belief in Charles to be absolutely ludicrous. That is how I feel about your beliefs and your religion.
I will never tell my children from the day they emerge from the womb of their mother, that they deserve to be punished and are evil and deserve death. I won't tell them that EVER. You may not tell them that at that age, but some do, and even if you don't tell them, it's what your fucking BOOK says. The thing is, you are like most other Christians. You pick and choose the things you like, and skip skip skip over the things you don't. Like that God endorses slavery, rape, murder, and many other evil repugnant acts that you and I are both well beyond supporting. You may claim that I take things out of context, or I didn't read it right. But your God should have been smart enough to make sure to make anything in His ONE TRUE book was written SO WELL that ANYBODY could understand EXACTLY what He meant EVERY TIME. So that there is no disagreement over the exact meaning of this verse here, and this person says it is Z, and this person says it was not Z doesn't ever happen.
If your God gave a shit about us, He might have AT LEAST, done so much as to give us a book that is unquestionably well-written in ANY language and completely impervious and unnecessary for interpretation in the slightest.
Your religion might have more merit if you were all the same brand of Christianity, but as I said, 30,000 different sects (I think it might actually be around 38,000 now, but I know 30,000 has been long since reached). I just cannot believe that anybody still finds the need to believe in fairy tales. Why do adults fight over invisible friends? I am sorry, but I am an adult, and I require testable, empirical, or demonstrable evidence before I am going to claim something to be true or not true, beyond that, I withhold my judgment, even if I will die before any real answer is revealed.
I'm a strong atheist (gnostic atheist) where Yahweh and Christianity, Islam, or Judaism are concerned. However, I am a weak atheist (agnostic atheist) to a God whose properties we do not know and cannot test, but we know Yahweh's properties, Allah's properties, etc...
You can go ahead and think you're better than me and call me a fool. You see, I get a kick out of the foolish calling me a fool. You've been fooled by your religion. Nothing should ever ask you to take your belief in your heart over evidence to the contrary. And that is what faith does. Faith is by definition, Blind Faith. As Martin Luther once said, „Hier stehe ich, ich kann nicht anders”.
I don't hate you, nor do I hate Christians individually. I do however despise your religion and what it does to people. And no, not everything is bad, religion does do some good for people, but it does so many times with lies and deceit, and I cannot stand by something that so obviously poisons people. I will tell the truth, even if it hurts somebody's feelings. *Although, in certain situations I will withhold the truth until a more opportune time. (For instance if my grandma didn't know I was an atheist, and she had just had a heart attack and was still weak and vulnerable, I would for her sake not reveal it just then or avoid the question.)*
When I am dead, I am dead. Period. I don't want to live forever. I don't know who thought that up to be a good idea. Seriously, do you want that? I want an end. I don't wish to always be around. I just want to live the one life I have the best I can, make best life I can, spend it with the love of my life, have children, watch them grow and maybe even see grandchildren someday, and eventually die. Would you deny me that because I am not like you? Because I would never deny a person anything because they're not an Atheist.
I believe in people having equal worth in this world, but I do also believe in everybody having superior abilities to one another, but somewhere they cancel out. (For instance one person is an excellent cook but can't make anything useful other than food to save their life, somebody else can't cook anything to save their life, but they can build some useful tools and such.)
Perhaps your friends became atheists for more reasons than just being treated badly, if you ask me, that was just the nudge out the door that they needed to be honest with themselves. After all, many people are closet atheists. At one time, I would have been such that I would have told people that I believed in God for the sake of friendship, because it is a community thing too that people are involved in church etc... However, now I would not. There was also a time when I believed in a higher power, but I now realize that what I really feel when I look at some of the more beautiful aspects of this planet we call Earth, is just the tie that I have with nature and the Earth itself. But I can feel the beauty of a meadow on the edge of a forest on a nice sunny day without the need for a God to be behind it. Yeah, it is what you might call spiritual, but spiritual is not necessarily related to God. It's a feeling. Heightened senses, and the ecstasy of life in your mind, all without the use of drugs, and yeah... This happens. I feel it just thinking about my clearing in the woods with my Johanna where we dance together and are at peace with each other and in nature, but there is no God there and that doesn't make it sad for me. It would do the opposite in fact. I can't imagine the stress you feel knowing that you're constantly being critiqued by an all powerful being that rules you with an iron fist so tight that he'd turn you into salt just for looking back at your former home.
We are ants, and God has a magnifying glass. I said God has a sense of humor. That is because, to God we are nothing more than mindless playthings, an afterthought. At least if you're correct. At least in the bible, God did shit that was demonstrable. Now, when a person breaks any of the ten commandments (or 600-something if you want to be technical) nothing happens, even when they directly provoke God. Nothing happens.
We, us, you, me, people, human beings... We are the ones who matter, who are important, and who make the difference. Not some magical force that was originally intended to explain how the world works like most myths have. Seriously now. We are the ones who have to take responsibility for ourselves, and this world. God isn't going to do it for us because He doesn't exist or is so far beyond us that we are literally as a cell is to us.
I don't really have any questions for you outright. If you want to ask me that's fine. I only ask questions because I try to get people to think, but it fails. You make special excuses for your religion, where in other parts of your life you would not. It's okay to worship somebody who has killed more people than any one person every could. It's okay that this being sends you to a place where you can be burned and suffer for all eternity for finite crimes. It's okay that this God allowed evil to exist... It's okay to forsake other people on the basis of belief alone...
And if you think it's okay for you to do those things, then we cannot be truly at peace with one another, not even individually, unless both parties are ignorant of the others' beliefs. Your religion forbids it.
I am sorry if I hurt your feelings or insulted you personally (although it was likely your religion I was insulting, or hypothetically speaking) in any way as that was not my goal.
You did ask for this. I do hope you'll respond and at least tell me you read this, because I sat here for like two hours. I would at least appreciate that you respond somehow.
This is how she responded to ALL of that.
Hey James, i got your message and I will get back to you as soon as possibly i just need to find time this weekend to re read your message and answer it. I am glad you put your time and effort into this, and to be fair I will do that as well. Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts with me.
She has YET to get back to me and it's been weeks. I WIN.