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So far one of the biggest deficiencies of Iron Chariots is the lack of consistency in both organizational layout across similar pages, and an unstructured approach to the information on those individual pages, that may not be accessible to people who are not as well read in formal logic, not as well read on scientific/historic facts, or perhaps don't speak English as a primary language.

This page is intended as a possible template to streamline the information and standardize the layout and format of pages on Iron Chariots related to logical arguments for the existence of god. A Very brief description of the argument goes here.


History of argument

If applicable this section of the page would give a more in depth description of the argument. What is the argument? Where did it originate? When is the first documented case of the argument being used? Who have been its major proponents throughout the ages? Is this argument still being used today, or is it one of those arguments that has made AiG's list of arguments theists shouldn't use?


Version 1

The first version of the argument may be in the form of a quote from a famous apologist or proponent of the particular argument.

Title of source material:

"This is obviously where the body of the quote would go. It would more or less be a copy paste from the source material. — Murphy c.2009"

Version 2

This version of the argument may be in the form of an in depth or expanded syllogism which more or less covers all the basic premises, logical steps and conclusions.

p1. First premise
p2. Second premise
a. Second premise expanded point one
b. Second premise expanded point two
p3. Third premise
a. Third premise expanded point one
b. Third premise expanded point two
p4. Forth premise
p5. Fifth premise
a. Fifth premise expanded one
b. Fifth premise expanded two
c. Fifth premise expanded three
c1. First conclusion
c2. Second conclusion
a. Additional notes about second conclusion
b. More additional notes about second conclusion

Version 3

This version of the argument bay be in the form of a simplified plain English syllogism of version 2. There are often many versions of an argument, differing in both the number of steps and complexity of those steps, but most of them can be broken down to 2–3 premises and a conclusion which adequately covers the core argument.

p1. First premise
p2. Second premise
p3. Third premise
c1. Conclusion

Counter arguments

False premise 1

This counter argument p2.b(version 2) may be an unproven assertion. For example, a statement about God's character that has no evidence to back it up, or any way of cross-checking. The details of why it is an unproven assertion should be laid out in depth in this section. It is probably also worth mentioning that it would be best for clarity and organization sake to have the counter arguments running in the same step-by-step order as the actual syllogism.

False premise 2

This counter argument p3.(version 3/simplified version) may be a premise that is just completely wrong and in complete conflict with our current understanding of science. Such as a Ray Comfort statement that males and females had to somehow asexually evolve perfectly side by side before they developed the ability to sexually reproduce. The details of why this premise is incorrect should be laid out in depth in this section. Facts, figures, reasons, references, etc.

Logical error 1

This logical flaw may be a case of fallacy of reification. For example, p4 may state that the apple in my hand is conceptual because the apple in my head is conceptual. Although it is in one of the premises, it is more a problem of logical validity rather than soundness.

Logical error 2

This flaw may be a case of special pleading. Perhaps the conclusion is in conflict with one of the premises. Such as the conclusion of the first cause argument that God has no first cause, despite the first premise being that everything has a cause.

Other counter arguments

  • Some arguments for God have a single fairly blatant error and are fairly simple to dismiss.
  • Others such as the TAG argument are rather complicated and fractally flawed.
  • More complicated arguments may have many errors, not all of which justify having their own section.
  • Those additional counter claims should be placed in this section


See also

  • This may be arguments that are related.
  • For instance, if this were the cosmological argument, Kalam would be directly related.
  • If this were the cosmological argument, first cause would also be peripherally related.

External links

  • Theist website that supports the argument
  • Atheist website that also debunks argument
  • Perhaps a relevant YouTube debate
  • Further reading on the argument, maybe even if its Wikipedia


  • Does the argument/counter argument source any scientific theories, papers, books, websites?
  • Does the argument/counter argument source any historical facts, evidence, papers, books, websites?
  • Are there any peripherally related topics to the argument that need explaining even if its just a link to Wikipedia?

v · d Arguments for the existence of god
Anthropic arguments   Anthropic principle · Natural-law argument
Arguments for belief   Pascal's Wager · Argument from faith · Just hit your knees
Christological arguments   Argument from scriptural miracles · Would someone die for a lie? · Liar, Lunatic or Lord
Cosmological arguments   Argument from aesthetic experience · Argument from contingency · Cosmological argument · Fine-tuning argument · Kalam · Leibniz cosmological argument · Principle of sufficient reason · Unmoved mover · Why is there something rather than nothing?
Majority arguments   Argument from admired religious scientists
Moral arguments   Argument from justice · Divine command theory
Ontological argument   Argument from degree · Argument from desire · Origin of the idea of God
Dogmatic arguments   Argument from divine sense · Argument from uniqueness
Teleological arguments   Argument from design · Banana argument · 747 Junkyard argument · Laminin argument · Argument from natural disasters
Testimonial arguments   Argument from observed miracles · Personal experience · Argument from consciousness · Emotional pleas · Efficacy of prayer
Transcendental arguments   God created numbers · Argument from the meaning of life
Scriptural arguments   Scriptural inerrancy · Scriptural scientific foreknowledge · Scriptural codes


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