Iron Chariots Wiki - User contributions [en]

Category:Atheist groups in Canada

2012-12-06T23:58:13Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: Adding info about CFI Canada.

This category lists [[atheist]] groups in Canada.
[[Center for Inquiry]] has a number of groups throughout Canada. Check Facebook for associated pages.

[[Category:Atheist groups in North America|Canada]]

War on Christmas

2012-12-06T07:01:45Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* The War on Christmas */ minor title change. Needs work. Will add more Tommorow. Maybe.

== The War on Christmas: Ignorance of a Holiday Mixed with Self-Righteousness and Fear ==
Every year, Fox News, and every fundamentalist Christian who doesn't know the actual origin of the holiday, starts rambling about how there is a nation-wide campaign to "take Christ out of Christmas!". They often say using the spelling Xmas is "X-ing the Christ out of Christmas", even though x is the first letter in the Greek word for Christ.

War on Christmas

2012-12-06T06:59:53Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: Page needs work, may do a minor edit after creation to fix format. Someone else help with this please...it's that time of tear again. Get the ammo, we're going to war (sarcasm)

== The War on Christmas ==
Every year, Fox News, and every fundamentalist Christian who doesn't know the actual origin of the holiday, starts rambling about how there is a nation-wide campaign to "take Christ out of Christmas!". They often say using the spelling Xmas is "X-ing the Christ out of Christmas", even though x is the first letter in the Greek word for Christ.

Conservapedia

2012-12-06T06:26:57Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: Fixing typos in links.

'''Conservapedia''' is a far-right-wing wiki with the stated goal of correcting bias and misinformation on [[Wikipedia]]. Some of the views expressed are so extreme that it is sometimes hard to tell which parts, if any, have been added by pranksters. The page on atheists is especially unreasonable, as it claims atheism is a religion (it isn't, just like bald isn't a hair color), tries to link atheism to obesity, etc. .

It has an extensive list of [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Special:AllPages&from=Atheism&to=Ayatollah articles on atheism] and related subjects.

The article on [[Richard Dawkins]] says that his family fortune came from the slave trade, and claims that he admires [[Adolf Hitler]], or doesn't think what he did was particularly wrong. Also, it says he said some rather stupid things on [[Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed]] to [[Ben Stein]], which he did not, the video has several obvious cuts. Read the page on [[Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed]] for more info.
==See also==
* [http://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page Conservapedia] main page.
* [[Poe's law]]

[[Category:Apologist web sites]]
[[Category:Wikis]]

Conservapedia

2012-12-06T06:23:18Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: Trying to fix links, again on my phone. Downloaded a better web browser though,so I'll know if it works.

'''Conservapedia''' is a far-right-wing wiki with the stated goal of correcting bias and misinformation on [[Wikipedia]]. Some of the views expressed are so extreme that it is sometimes hard to tell which parts, if any, have been added by pranksters. The page on atheists is especially unreasonable, as it claims atheism is a religion (it isn't, just like bald isn't a hair color), tries to link atheism to obesity, etc. .

It has an extensive list of [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Special:AllPages&from=Atheism&to=Ayatollah articles on atheism] and related subjects.

The article on [[Richard Dawkins]] says that his family fortune came from the slave trade, and claims that he admires [[Adolf Hitler]], or doesn't think what he did was particularly wrong. Also, it says he said some rather stupid things on [[Expelled: No Inelligence Allowed]] to [[Ben Stein]], which he did not, the video has several obvious cuts. Read the page on [[Expelled:No Intelligence Allowed]] for more info.
==See also==
* [http://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page Conservapedia] main page.
* [[Poe's law]]

[[Category:Apologist web sites]]
[[Category:Wikis]]

Conservapedia

2012-12-04T01:50:42Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: Please check links, I can't, because I'm editing this on my phone, my computer is broken.

'''Conservapedia''' is a far-right-wing wiki with the stated goal of correcting bias and misinformation on [[Wikipedia]]. Some of the views expressed are so extreme that it is sometimes hard to tell which parts, if any, have been added by pranksters. The page on atheists is especially unreasonable, as it claims atheism is a religion (it isn't, just like bald isn't a hair color), tries to link atheism to obesity, etc. .

It has an extensive list of [http://www.conservapedia.com/index.php?title=Special:AllPages&from=Atheism&to=Ayatollah articles on atheism] and related subjects.

The article on [Richard Dawkins] says that his family fortune came from the slave trade, and claims that he admires Adolf Hitler. Also, it says he said some rather stupid things on [Expelled: No Inelligence Allowed] to [Ben Stein], which he did not, the video has several obvious cuts. Read the page on [Expelled:No Intelligence Allowed] for more info.
==See also==
* [http://www.conservapedia.com/Main_Page Conservapedia] main page.
* [[Poe's law]]

[[Category:Apologist web sites]]
[[Category:Wikis]]

User:WhatsAGoodUsername?

2012-09-17T19:56:30Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: Created page with "Hi, im an atheist from Canada, that semi-secular northern country where 49% of the population supports the removal of the word "god" from the national anthem!"

Hi, im an atheist from Canada, that semi-secular northern country where 49% of the population supports the removal of the word "god" from the national anthem!

User talk:WhatsAGoodUsername?

2012-09-17T19:50:17Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Preview and broken links */

{{Welcome}}
It's good to see allies in the fight against [[Ray Comfort]]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:21, 28 October 2011 (CDT)

== Discussion ==
Put stuff you wanna talk about here, I like to debate and stuff.

I'm back, computer was broken, couldn't get a new one, got an iPhone 4s for my birthday, may do some editing from time to time.
I plan on adding more to Ben stein's expelled: no intelligence allowed about their dishonest editing of an interview with Richard Dawkins.

== Ideas for New Pages ==
I'll list pages I've started here that need more info. Sorry, I dont know how to link things, so you have to search them yourself.

[[Harold Camping]]

To make a link you type <nowiki>[[Harold Camping]], </nowiki>it comes out as, [[Harold Camping]], there is more [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Editing here] on a different site. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:16, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

== Transfer ==

Another user removed stuff you wrote and I can't prevent this as they outrank me. I've transfered what you wrote to [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Ray_Comfort Ray Comfort] where I'm the chief administrator. You are very welcome to edit [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 04:06, 1 November 2011 (CDT)
I DIDNT GIVE YOU PERMISSION!!!!! No, its okay, I dont mind, but you should ask before you do that to people in case they get offended (but then again, some find our very existence offending.).
can you do some research on Harold Camping and Ben Stien? i feel they need more info, but I couldnt add much from memory...

== Preview and broken links ==

In the [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Expelled:_No_Intelligence_Allowed&diff=21312&oldid=19808 change log] for your edit to ''[[Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed]]'', you wrote:
{{quote|New section, unsure if link works, section may need cleaning up. Will test link.}}
In case you didn't know, you can use the "Show preview" button when submitting an edit. This allows you to do things like check for broken links before committing the change.
If you're worried about navigating to a new page, then hitting "back" and finding that your browser has forgotten your edits, you can always open the link in a new tab or window. --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 08:30, 9 September 2012 (CDT)
: See, the problem is, I'm using an iPhone, and I did test the link, however I was unsure if it would work with a proper computer, as my iPhone has a YouTube app, and that's where I got the link from, and I wanted to be certain.
:: Ah, sorry. I missed that part. --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 17:09, 9 September 2012 (CDT)
No worries.

User talk:WhatsAGoodUsername?

2012-09-09T21:46:12Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Preview and broken links */

{{Welcome}}
It's good to see allies in the fight against [[Ray Comfort]]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:21, 28 October 2011 (CDT)

== Discussion ==
Put stuff you wanna talk about here, I like to debate and stuff.

I'm back, computer was broken, couldn't get a new one, got an iPhone 4s for my birthday, may do some editing from time to time.
I plan on adding more to Ben stein's expelled: no intelligence allowed about their dishonest editing of an interview with Richard Dawkins.

== Ideas for New Pages ==
I'll list pages I've started here that need more info. Sorry, I dont know how to link things, so you have to search them yourself.

[[Harold Camping]]

To make a link you type <nowiki>[[Harold Camping]], </nowiki>it comes out as, [[Harold Camping]], there is more [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Editing here] on a different site. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:16, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

== Transfer ==

Another user removed stuff you wrote and I can't prevent this as they outrank me. I've transfered what you wrote to [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Ray_Comfort Ray Comfort] where I'm the chief administrator. You are very welcome to edit [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 04:06, 1 November 2011 (CDT)
I DIDNT GIVE YOU PERMISSION!!!!! No, its okay, I dont mind, but you should ask before you do that to people in case they get offended (but then again, some find our very existence offending.).
can you do some research on Harold Camping and Ben Stien? i feel they need more info, but I couldnt add much from memory...

== Preview and broken links ==

In the [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Expelled:_No_Intelligence_Allowed&diff=21312&oldid=19808 change log] for your edit to ''[[Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed]]'', you wrote:
{{quote|New section, unsure if link works, section may need cleaning up. Will test link.}}
In case you didn't know, you can use the "Show preview" button when submitting an edit. This allows you to do things like check for broken links before committing the change.
If you're worried about navigating to a new page, then hitting "back" and finding that your browser has forgotten your edits, you can always open the link in a new tab or window. --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 08:30, 9 September 2012 (CDT)
See, the problem is, I'm using an iPhone, and I did test the link, however I was unsure if it would work with a proper computer, as my iPhone has a YouTube app, and that's where I got the link from, and I wanted to be certain.

Arguments for the existence of god

2012-09-09T07:41:07Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Apologetics */ buffed up the number of Christian denominations, Wikipedia says over 36000

[[Image:Button_argumentsfor.png|right|Arguments for the existence of god]]
==Overview==

===Apologetics===
As long as there have been two or more people with differing [[religious]] views, there has been proselytism. This of course presents a problem; as [[religion]] is based on [[faith]] rather than [[evidence]], [[logic]], or [[reason]], how does one go about convincing other people that their religion is the correct one? After all, if it's based on faith and not reason, your faith is by definition really no more a reasonable position than anyone else's. If you don't like what the [[church]] is doing, just form your own. You don't need evidence, just faith. As a result of this complete lack of evidence on what the ''true'' faith apparently is, there are over 30,000 denominations of [[Christianity]] alone, and no empirical reason to believe any of them.

Over the years, attempts to convert people to a particular faith have taken many different forms, most of them involving brute force and threats of violence - Convert or suffer the wrath of god's chosen people! This was fine up until about the end of the Dark Ages, with the adage that-

''unknown source'':
{{Quote|[[Creationism]] lost its best argument when the [[Catholic church]] stopped burning people at the stake}}

After the enlightenment, the church started to have serious problems justifying its position. As [[science]] expanded our view of the world, [[God]] had fewer and fewer places to hide. Coupled with the fact that it was now considered slightly ''uncouth'' to simply torture and burn alive those that disagreed with you, the church and its parishioners now had to work very hard to justify their positions of belief, and harder still to convert others. Thus [[apologetics]] was born.

In a nutshell, apologetics is the discipline of attempting to justify a theological position through evidence, [[philosophy]], [[science]], [[metaphysics]], and history. However, when these apologetics arguments are actually reviewed under scrutiny, we find they rely on:
* evidence so incredibly poor that even the apologists using it wouldn't accept such evidence as proof of anything in any other argument than for that of their personal god,
* horrific straw man representations of true scientific theories,
* convoluted metaphysics that ultimately have no real world underpinning, and
* the distortion of historically documented events and evidence in a fashion similar in degree and irrationality to holocaust denial.
There are many conflicting arguments which attempt to support the existence of many conflicting gods. Being often mutually contradictory, they can't all be correct - but they can all be wrong. Indeed, every "argument" presented for gods thus far has one or more problems with validity or soundness. At their core, even the most seemingly persuasive apologetics are founded upon cognitive biases, magical thinking, logical fallacies, or basic unproved assertions, and the fact that theists of all stripes tend to use the same arguments for their specific god or gods speaks more to the common flaws in human thinking than it does to the usefulness of the arguments.

===Definitions===
It is important when engaging in an argument with a theist that all the required concepts involved in the argument are clearly defined; ''particularly'' '''the definition of God'''. Having clearly defined definitions prevents the theist from [[Moving goalposts|moving the goalposts]] mid-argument, or even more frustratingly getting to the end of the argument and then having the theists say “but that's not my god” or "[[that's not in my Bible]]".

===Purpose of the argument===
It is also important to make sure that the discussion is one that will be enlightening. An important question is, "what is the purpose of this discussion/argument?"

Prior to the onset of the hopefully dialectical discussion, both sides must reflect on the purpose and aim of the discussion. Argumentation will only prove to be fruitful if both sides are aware and accepting of the limits of persuasion in argumentation.

Religious people will almost never be "convinced" by any logically defeating counter-point, remaining staunch in their conviction, unless their faith is solely dependent on reason and proper logic. Therefore, it seems the appropriate middle-way seems to be to approach these discussions, on the whole, as forums for insightful discussion, rather than grounds for a conversion war, an approach that has proven and will continuously be proven to be ineffective in convincing religious theists to lay down their dogma.

It is important to consider the reason that successful logical arguments fail to convince theists is precisely that these theists were not convinced by logical arguments in believing in a divine being. It is usually based on personal experience, some subjective conviction that cannot be formulated into logical terms. It seems that even those who claim that their theistic belief is constructed upon some logically argumentative foundation, when pushed, eventually admit there is some fundamental subjective impetus for belief. However, if a particular theist maintains that they have a logical, objective foundation, but then dogmatically refuse to acknowledge the failure of his argument and are unwilling to question his theistic belief, then further communication is unnecessary and pointless.

==Favorite arguments==
===Most common theistic arguments===
* [[First cause]]
* [[Pascal's Wager]]
* [[Argument from design]]
* [[Argument from the meaning of life]]

===Favorites of professional apologists===
* [[Ontological argument]]
* [[Transcendental argument]]
* [[Kalam]]
* [[Evolutionary Argument Against Naturalism]]

===See Also===
* [[Call for Proof]]

{{Arguments for god}}

[[Category:Arguments]]

YouTube

2012-09-09T07:32:25Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Pro-Science/Atheist */ added potholer54's alternate account, don't know how to make links properly, please tell my on my talk page, thanks.

There are many videos on YouTube dealing with Evolution, Creation, atheism and God.

== Channels==
=== Pro-Science/Atheist ===
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/Thunderf00t Thunderf00t]
:Creator of the ''[http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=AC3481305829426D Why do people laugh at creationists?]'' series of videos, various science/astronomy videos, along with videos documenting his humiliation of VenomFangX.
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/C0nc0rdance C0nc0rdance]
:Pro-science and critical thinking videos. Is a molecular biologist. Created the [http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL6468ADC338D57BA8&feature=plcp Learning to Think Critically] series.
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/richarddawkinsdotnet richarddawkinsdotnet]
:The [[Richard Dawkins Foundation]]. Lectures, documentaries and interviews by [[Richard Dawkins]].
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/patcondell patcondell]
:British stand-up comedian Pat Condell, with almost 150,000 followers (as of March 2011).
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/FFreeThinker FFreeThinker]
:Various atheist and science videos, including more than hundred (as of June 2009) excerpts from [[The Atheist Experience]].
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/MrEvilution777 MrEvilution777]
:Brett Keane, very active creator of various atheist videos, often calling pastors and churches asking tough questions in a civil manner.
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/ZOMGitsCriss ZOMGitsCriss] (Cristina Rad)
:Romanian atheist woman. [http://cristinarad.blogspot.com/ Christina Rad Blog]
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/AronRa AronRa]
:Creator of the ''[http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=126AFB53A6F002CC Foundational Falsehood of Creationism]'' series of videos.
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/potholer54 Potholer54]
:Creator of the ''[http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=DB23537556D7AADB From Big Bang to Us – Made Easy]'' series of videos. Also has another account, potholer54 debunks for protection from digital millennium copyright act abuse, not used much.
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/EdwardCurrent Edward Current]
:Creates parodies of creationist videos which are sometimes mistaken for the real thing - see [[Poe's law]].
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/MrsBettyBowers MrsBettyBowers]
:"Mrs. Betty Bowers, America's best Christian." Christian satire.
;[http://www.youtube.com/ExtantDodo ExtantDodo]
:Goes through creationist videos, such as those of [[Kent Hovind]], and debunks their claims step by step.
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/cdk007 cdk007]
:Many pro-evolution videos and creationist criticism.
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/FightingAtheist FightingAtheist]
:Videos by an ex-Christian
;[http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Nick+Gisburne+&search_type=&aq=f Nick Gisburne]
:Account which was deleted by youtube for quoting the Qur'an. [http://www.brianflemming.org/archives/002508.html The Nick Gisburne story]
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/QualiaSoup QualiaSoup]
:Pro-reason videos focused on correct use of logic and semantics. Uses graphics and animation.
:Notable videos include [http://youtu.be/6OLPL5p0fMg Critical Thinking], [http://youtu.be/5wV_REEdvxo Putting faith in its place], and [http://youtu.be/P1LLBN5X0Q0 Open mindedness]
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/1GOD1JESUS 1GOD1JESUS]
:Father Greg, Christian evangelist satire
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/AngieAntiTheist AngieAntiTheist]
:Former religious cult member.
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/FactVsReligion FactVsReligion]
:Commentary
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/KingHeathen KingHeathen]
:Commentary
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/misterdeity MisterDeity]
:God "behind the scenes" brilliant sketch comedy.
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/NonStampCollector NonStampCollector]
:Animated comedy demonstrating absurdities of Christianity.
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/TremickWorld Tremick's World]
:Commentary
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/BornWithoutReligion BornWithoutReligion]
:Commentary
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/coughlan666 Richard "The Dick" Coughlan]
:Suspended account. [http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=coughlan666 Search Coughlan666 on Youtube]
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/dprjones dprjones]
:#10 most subscribed of all time from the UK.
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/TheThinkingAtheist TheThinkingAtheist]
:Former Christian who uses "satire, research and some common sense" to explore questions about God.
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/TheraminTrees TheraminTrees]
: Like QualiaSoup, uses graphics and animation accompanied by narration. Creator of [http://richarddawkins.net/videos/3515-instruction-manual-for-life "Instruction Manual for Life"], a sort of parable about being raised in the church.
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/DarkMatter2525 DarkMatter2525]
:Satirical animations, including the ''[http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL71922DE34C9673BD&feature=plcp God & Jeffery]'' series
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/ZJemptv ZJemptv] (Zinnia Jones)
:Discusses atheism, LGBT and transgender issues. [http://zinniajones.com/blog/ Zinnia Jones blog]
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/TheAmazingAtheist TheAmazingAtheist] (TJ Kincaid)
:Political and social commentary
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/AntiCitizenX AntiCitizenX]
:Commentary on morality and the psychology of religion
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/bdwilson1000 bdwilson1000 - Religion, Atheism, Science] '''(Derek Mathias)'''
: Collections of atheist and critical thinking videos. Author of: [http://introducedrat.com/evolution.htm The Web's Best Videos on Evolution, Creationism, Atheism and More]. [http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL59FDC1E7AB317957&feature=plcp Psychology of Belief] series

=== Skeptic ===
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/JamesRandiFoundation JamesRandiFoundation]
:The [[James Randi Educational Foundation]]. Videos where [[James Randi|James "The Amazing" Randi]] talks about various topics related to skepticism and critical thinking + debunks various forms of superstition.

=== Pro-Creation ===
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/VenomFangX VenomFangX]
:A Christian creationist who parrots arguments from Kent Hovind. All of his videos were removed from the VenomFangX channel when he left YouTube. However, as of December 10, 2011 his channel is back up. His older videos can be found on the [http://www.youtube.com/user/VenomFangArchive VenomFangArchive Channel].
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/thewayofthemaster thewayofthemaster]
:[[Ray Comfort]] & [[Kirk Cameron]] of [[The Way of the Master]] ministries. Perhaps best known for the video [[Banana argument|Bananas - The Atheist's Worst Nightmare]].
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/AnotherBrotherMark AnotherBrotherMark]
:Self described as "Youtube's most despicable Christian"
;[http://www.youtube.com/user/NephilimFree NephilimFree]
:An abrasive young-earth creationist and geocentrist who is described by many as one of the creepiest and most deranged personalities one could wish to come across in the YouTube community. Well known for his signature oversized head-gear apparatus, delusions of grandeur, and theories from far out in left field, he comes across as loopy entertainment to some and unbearable to others.

==See also==
* [[Atheist podcasts]]

== External links ==
[http://www.youtube.com/ YouTube website]

[[Category:Media]]
[[Category:Web sites]]

Ben Stein

2012-09-09T07:25:30Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: Added same link and info in shorter form, link works for iPhone, but can't test for anything else PLEASE CHECK LINK.

{{apologist-stub}}
'''Ben Stein''' is a creationist, economist, and actor who narrated the movie ''[[Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed]], a "documentary" (if it can be called that) about evolution. He claims this "documentary" was "extensively researched" over a two-year period, but he claims evolution is "lightning striking a mud puddle", even though evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life, it only explains the diversity of life. If he had done more than 10 minutes of research about evolution he would know this, so he is obviously lying about his research on evolution. ''.
Furthermore, he used extremely dishonest editing practices in expelled (as seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8btZ0KWFFBg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
)
==External links==
{{wikipedia}}

*[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiNGK3y5Ypg&feature=relmfu A video showing Ben Stein's ignorance]

{{DEFAULTSORT:Stein, Ben}}
[[Category:People]]
[[Category:Apologists]]

Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

2012-09-09T07:20:51Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Expelled From Expelled */ New section, unsure if link works, section may need cleaning up. Will test link.

"Expelled" is a 2008 film intended to support [[Intelligent Design]] and suppress scientific theories regarding [[evolution]].

===Arguments===
[[Ben Stein]] attempts to link evolution with communism, fascism, [[atheism]], Planned Parenthood, and the Nazi holocaust by correlating evolution to eugenics. The film further contends that an extensive conspiracy exists to promote Darwinism and suppress any concept of intelligent design. This conspiracy allegedly involves scientists, media, educators, and even the courts.

In his blog, Ben Stein claims:
<blockquote>Under a new anti-religious dogmatism, scientists and educators are not allowed to even think thoughts that involve an intelligent creator. Do you realize that some of the leading lights of "anti-intelligent design" would not allow a scientist who merely believed in the possibility of an intelligent designer/creator to work for him... EVEN IF HE NEVER MENTIONED the possibility of intelligent design in the universe? EVEN FOR HIS VERY THOUGHTS... HE WOULD BE BANNED. </blockquote>

===Counter-Arguments===
Ben said that they did two years of "extensive research" regarding evolution before doing this film. However, he has said evolution is "lightning striking a mud puddle" in several talk show interviews, which is a [[straw man|straw man argument]] against [[abiogenesis]], not evolution. One team extensively researching evolution for two years (with a bias towards the results) is also hardly on par with the numerous groups and individuals who have made researching evolution their life's work.

Eugenics is nothing more than the idea that artificial selection techniques, such as those used by animal breeders, can be used on humans as well. Evolution is the study of change, specifically, changes in biological forms. While the artificial selection techniques of eugenics and breeding do fit under this umbrella, the main concern of evolutionary study is the understanding of [[natural selection]].

While these techniques can, theoretically, be used against a population by forcing individuals to breed or sterilize themselves, in practice, eugenics are used by individuals to increase their quality of life and that of their children.

Dor Yeshorim, for example, is a genetic testing program that identifies harmful recessive genes in [[Judaism|Jews]]. When both parents have the same recessive gene, their offspring have a significant chance of contracting certain harmful or even fatal conditions. Eugenics come into play where Jews use this information in selecting a mate, deciding to have children, or deciding to abort a pregnancy. This form of eugenics helps prevent Tay-Sachs disease, Cystic Fibrosis, Canavan disease, Fanconi anemia, Familial Dysautonomia, Glycogen storage disease, Bloom's Syndrome, Gaucher Disease, Niemann-Pick Disease, and Mucolipidosis IV.

==Expelled From Expelled==
[[PZ Myers]] and [[Richard Dawkins]], who were both interviewed in Expelled (and thanked in the end credits), went to see a pre-release screening of the film. While waiting in line, Myers was recognized by event personnel and denied access, but Dawkins went unnoticed and attended the screening. During a Q&A session after the screening, hilarity ensued as Dawkins brought this up.

==Extremely Dishonest Editing==
There was an interview with Richard Dawkins that was BLATANTLY edited to make him look wrong. Here is a video by a former journalist showing the dishonest editing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8btZ0KWFFBg&feature=youtube_gdata_player

==External links==
* [http://www.expelledexposed.com/ Expelled Exposed]
* [http://www.youtube.com/user/ExpelledExposed ExpelledExposed's YouTube channel]
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwhZqNgfRC0 How To Watch Expelled with Correcting Subtitles]

[[Category:Movies]]
[[Category:Media]]

User talk:WhatsAGoodUsername?

2012-09-09T06:08:46Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Discussion */ I'M BACK

User talk:Arensb

2012-01-08T01:14:46Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Spam */

By the way, have I met you? I'm assuming you're a Non-Prophets listener, do you show up in the chat room? Great job on your contributions so far, by the way. -- [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:30, 18 July 2006 (MST)
: I doubt it. I've never been to Austin (though if I'm ever there, I'd love to stop by Threadgill's and meet y'all). I ran across the Non-Prophets and Atheist Experience podcasts by chance while looking for something to listen to while doing yard work.
: And no, I haven't contributed to the chat room. They tend to turn into major time sinks, unfortunately. --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 11:41, 18 July 2006 (MST)

== Famous atheists link fix ==

Thanks for catching the redlink I caused on the Main Page when I deleted the "Famous atheists" category. I recategorized the relevant articles but forgot to check "What links here". (I didn't think there was a good reason to have a separate category for "famous" atheists since if an atheist isn't famous in some sense, they really wouldn't warrant an article here.) - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 00:00, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

: Nae problem. I figured that was what had happened. --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 08:29, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

== Status and admin stuff ==

I've upgraded your permissions to sysop and bureaucrat. It seemed reasonable, but let me know if there's a problem with that. Also - drop me an e-mail when you can[[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 13:03, 6 April 2007 (CDT)

== Sysop ==

Welcome to The Inner Circle. <g> I see Matt has made you a sysop. I've added an entry to [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Administrators]] for you. You can describe yourself briefly there, if you wish. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 17:33, 17 April 2007 (CDT)

== One syllable? ==

Regarding the pronunciation of your name, how do you make it one syllable? I would have thought "Eh-rensb" (hence, two syllables). What is the appropriate vowel sound? So it rhymes with "farms" or "cairns"? - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 17:44, 17 April 2007 (CDT)
: Gah. You're right. (Counting syllables is easy in Russian and French; it's much harder in English.)
: As for the initial A, the easy answer is that I don't really care as long as you get all the letters in the right order. The fuller answer is that in English I pronounce it as in "air" or "cairns", and in other languages I pronounce it as in "father".
: Hopefully this brings some much-needed confusion to this issue. --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 23:06, 17 April 2007 (CDT)

== Category sortkey question ==

You asked about [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Religion&diff=6179&oldid=5458 my categorization] of [[Religion]] using the "*" sortkey. It is [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:Categorization#Priority sort keys|customary on Wikipedia]] to force articles having the same name as a category to be listed first among articles in that category. The "*" sortkey does this (as does a sortkey starting with a space, which some people prefer). I've just carried that convention over to this wiki. We don't have to do it that way, if you want to lobby for a different style. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 17:40, 8 May 2007 (CDT)
: Thanks. I suspected as much, but wanted to check. I'm not as well-versed in either MediaWiki or Wikipedia lore as I'd like to be. --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 17:52, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

== More categorization issues ==

I don't agree with [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Thomas_Jefferson&diff=prev&oldid=6193 your decision to remove] [[:Category:People]] from articles already in one of its subcats, such as [[:Category:Atheists]]. I know there is a big push on Wikipedia to avoid categorization into "adjacent" categories (i.e., a category and its immediate parent), but if a reader doesn't already know whether a given person is an atheist, they will have a harder time finding the article for that person using our category structure. Besides, keeping atheists separate from everyone else just don't feel right.... OTOH, thanks for adding the last-name sortkeys. BTW, did you notice [[#Sysop|my other comment above]]? You haven't edited [[Project:Administrators]], so I wasn't sure. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 14:46, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
: I figured the whole reason for having categories within categories was to put articles in the most specific categories. You're right that there's a certain logic in putting articles in both a generic and a specific category, but there ought to be some guidelines as to how to do it: Douglas Adams goes in [[:Category:Atheists]] because he's an atheist, and you could argue that he goes in [[:Category:People]] because he's a celebrity. But what about Richard Dawkins, who is well-known for being an atheist?
: I suppose the guiding principle should be to put articles in those categories where they'll do the most good, but I don't know how to turn that into a set of editorial do's and don'ts.
: Oh, and I haven't updated my line in [[Project:Administrators]] because I haven't come up with a pithy one-liner with which to summarize the totality of my life and relevant experience.
: --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 17:01, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

We can discuss this at [[Project talk:Categorization]] if you think other people should weigh in on this issue. (Which reminds me... it's still hard to get the attention of a lot of editors at once, since the wiki is relatively low-traffic, and discussion of the wiki as a whole has been going on mostly off-wiki, in [http://forum.ironchariots.org/ the forum(s)]. In particular, see [http://forum.ironchariots.org/viewtopic.php?t=618 this post of mine].) - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 14:59, 10 May 2007 (CDT)
: One of these days, I should probably sign up for the forum. --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 17:01, 10 May 2007 (CDT)

== What is you policy about imports ==
: Unable to spell "your". Ten points from Gryffindor. --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 10:27, 9 February 2009 (CST)

The Wikipedia article on Human sacrifice was referenced.[[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 06:44, 9 February 2009 (CST)

I don't know that Iron Chariots has a formal policy on this sort of thing, but if there were, I'd recommend that it be against importing articles wholesale from other sites, particularly Wikipedia:
# There's already a [[Template:Wikipedia]] that can be used to point the reader there.
# Any imported articles will quickly become out of date as articles on Wikipedia are updated and their local copies aren't.
# As you may have noticed, pages don't necessarily import cleanly: the text you imported was chock full of dead links, with templates and categories that don't exist here and likely never will.
# Since this is a specialized wiki and not a general reference work, it's better to concentrate on the atheism aspect of topics covered here.

--[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 10:27, 9 February 2009 (CST)

:: See [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Editing guidelines#General guidelines]] for our "policy" about copying Wikipedia articles over to this wiki. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 04:57, 26 March 2009 (CDT)

Arensb, there seems to be issues that organizers of this site have not cleared out yet. ''Arguments, and syllogisms particularly, are not owned by their authors''; however, the articles ''explaining the arguments'' are rightly owned. It is ''not plagiarism'' if one imports a syllogism or formal argument from another site.--[[User:Wissam hemadeh|wissam hemadeh]] 10:10, 24 June 2010 (CDT)

== Wiki's recent changes log... ==

The wiki's clock seems to be off by more than a week.... The history pages are showing the wrong dates. [[User:Jwissick|Jwissick]] 00:01, 7 April 2010 (CDT)

In fact if you check the history of this page, you will see that this comment was left on March 25, even though today is April 6th. [[User:Jwissick|Jwissick]] 00:02, 7 April 2010 (CDT)

==Spam==
Blocking spambots is usually a waste of time, they create new accounts easily and rarely or never come twice. Blocking human spammers can work, depends if they have a static or dynamic IP adress. The best protection against spambots is a [[Wikipedia:CAPTCHA|CAPTCHA]], [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 08:52, 27 October 2011 (CDT)

: Yeah, I know. But I don't have privileges to install MediaWiki modules or change the wiki's configuration. For that, you'd have to talk to one of the Real Admins™. [[User:Sans_Deity]] or [[User:Kazim]] might be able to point you in the right direction.
: Deleting spam and banning accounts used to spam is about as far as my superpowers go. --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 10:41, 27 October 2011 (CDT)

Thanks for helping again with spam, I think it helps discourage spammers if they see that more than one admin is active. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 13:19, 9 November 2011 (CST)

Thasnks yet again, I went out and enjoyed myself offline but I kept thinking, "There'll be a mountain of spam to clear when I get back." Now there isn't. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 12:49, 12 November 2011 (CST)

I've lost Internet access at home so I can't help with spam very much for the moment, sorry. I'll check the sites where I'm an administrator from time to time from public computers Engineers are due next week to look at my Internet connection. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 08:17, 18 November 2011 (CST)

hey, have you noticed the calendar is glitched? [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

==Miracles and wiki links==
Hi Arensb. I see that you deleted the redirect I created from [[Miracles]] with the comment "Just use miracles", which I'm afraid I don't quite understand. I believe it is common policy on most wikis to create articles in the singular and then create redirects in the plural. I understand that to be [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirect#Purposes_of_redirects wikipedia policy]. It's certainly much easier to create wiki links where the linking "from" article has the plural form as first usage.

Consider this page [[Miracles in history]] which pretty obviously needs a link to "miracle". The first use of the word is the plural "miracles". If there is a redirect then it can be linked as <nowiki>[[miracles]]</nowiki> but if the redirect is not allowed the then the redirect has to be either <nowiki>[[miracle]]</nowiki>s or, even worse, <nowiki>[[miracle miracles]] - both of which are more difficult than if the redirect were in place.

Furthermore the redirect means that a search on "miracles" will go direct to "miracle".

I'm not trying to pick a fight over this I'm just wondering if you could explain your decision. Cheers. --~~~~</nowiki>

: Sorry about the changelog. It should have read "Just use <nowiki>[[Miracle]]s</nowiki>". It seems like an unnecessary redirect, given that you can put the "s" outside of the brackets. It's just cleaner that way, and the [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Iron_Chariots_Wiki:Editing_guidelines#Links style guidelines] list that as good usage. --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 11:32, 25 November 2011 (CST)
::Hi Arensb. :-) OK, but:
::#The style guide doesn't relay explicitly say that you can't create redirects in such cases, rather it tells you how to link if there is no redirect.
::#If the style guide really says that you shouldn't create redirects in such cases then it is badly worded.
::#The style guide also says: ''"if this is a "redlink" → <nowiki>[[apologist]]</nowiki> create a page there with this content → <nowiki>#REDIRECT [[Apologetics]] </nowiki>"''
::#The Wikipdia folks have thought about these things long and hard and their solution is plurals for redirects.
::#If you go to a page with things which look like they should be linked you can just highlight the word and click on the "AB" tab at the top of the page. This automatically adds the square brackets. This is a lot easier than it is to manually enter four square brackets while carefully ensuring that the last two are between the root word and the final "s".
::But if you still feel that this isn't permitted by the guidelines then I'll take it up at the style guidelines page. Again, I'm not looking for an argument, but this wiki is short of internal links and I was setting about creating them (check my contributions) and redirects are a lot more efficient than having to mess about with individual wiki-code for each one.--[[User:Bob M|Bob M]] 11:59, 25 November 2011 (CST)
:::Hi. Can I take your silence as implicit agreement? I ask because I'd like to continue adding links but before doing so I would like conformation that this wiki is going to follow standard internal wiki-linking conventions. Thanks. --[[User:Bob M|Bob M]] 11:47, 26 November 2011 (CST)

There is a problem that administrators spend too little time at this wiki. I did a lot of work, then got into trouble because this wiki wants a more polite approach than I was using. It would have been much better if the admins had said something tactful to me earlier on. Later I got into trouble because I called another user a troll '''after''' that user had had accused me of trolling, see [[Iron Chariots Wiki talk:Editing guidelines#Kazim's response]]. Presumably administrators had insufficient time to read that I was responding to someone else’s accusation. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 13:25, 26 November 2011 (CST)
:Hi Proxima. To be honest I don't really want to get involved in any other disputes you may be having as - and I hope you will pardon my saying this - you do have a tendency to get involved in misunderstandings.--[[User:Bob M|Bob M]] 16:39, 26 November 2011 (CST)

User talk:Kazim

2012-01-07T06:03:29Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* SPAM SUCKS! */

In the [[Special:Logs|Logs]], I see you deleted [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Searching]] on Aug 19th, saying, "''This is the second time this page has popped up as a redirect, and I don't know why''". I do. It's linked to from the [[Special:Search/fubar|Search results]] page when you do an unsuccessful search (follow last link to see example). - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 02:07, 26 August 2006 (MST)
: Actually, it shows up on [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?search=bible&fulltext=Search successful searches], too. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 02:36, 26 August 2006 (MST)

==Known issues==
Since registering a few hours ago, I've made an initial pass through the wiki (main navigation pages, special pages) looking for "obvious" problems. I've collected them at [[User:Dcljr/Sandbox]]. Basically, I wanted to give you (and [[User:Sans Deity|Matt]]) a heads-up before I go in changing everything. <w> - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 03:41, 26 August 2006 (MST)

== Spaces in URLs ==

I've replied on [[User talk:Dcljr#Wow|my talk page]]. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 03:13, 29 August 2006 (MST)

== Comment-box ==
The only extra typing which is required is "text=" (as you could just start the text section with <nowiki>'''Comment:'''</nowiki>). The old comment-box didn't format correctly in every situation (if, for example a picture or menu div or anything else exists to the right or left of it) which required me to make comment-box2 (to adjust the right margin) and might have eventually lead to comment-box3,4,5,6,7,8,9 (to adjust left margin or color or anything else). That could all be replaced with one template, so why not do it? Additionally, templates which use <nowiki>{{{1}}}</nowiki> (unnamed parameters) have additional limitations that prevent some "behind the scenes" stuff from working - unnamed parameters, for example, don't always work well when referencing one template from within another. - [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 10:44, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

: Actually, using "text=" AND typing the extra bolded word "comment" is a lot of extra typing, especially considering that it will be repeated many times over throughout the course of an article.
: Despite the issues you raised, it seems to me that the generic box is shorter and easier for most simple text. What if I reintroduced Comment-box and made it reference Comment-box1 as a special case? Then we could still use Comment-box1 any time we need to use a picture or whatever. -- [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:14, 10 September 2006 (CDT)
:: I guess that would be ok, the problem is that if people add pictures or sidebars later, without properly understanding the templates it's going to be a bit of work for them to figure out that the need to completely change which template is referenced. Instead of looking at the template in use and simply changing/adding a parameter, they now have to completely switch templates. I'd rather type a little extra now so that the only thing an editor would need to do is add a "width=" (or similar). I suppose it's ok to have a million templates but I just want the templates to be manageable and having one template that had a pretty solid default function while allowing optional parameters to be set. One thing we'll definitely want to do, either way, is categorize templates and make sure that they're well documented - which would include documenting all similar template.

:: Generally, I'm of the opinion that "Comment-box1" shouldn't be considered a "special case" template, it should be the default - because it's the one that doesn't suffer from the problems that "Comment-box" suffers from. But that's just me...add it if you like, I'll be typing the extra few characters. To me, it's not just about which solution requires me to type less, it's about which solution is more useful and simpler. Why learn many templates for comment boxes when you only have to learn one? Maybe we don't want every comment in a given article to have the "Comment:" preface, some should maybe be "See also:" or "Response:". Maybe we don't want them all to be the same color...if a particular comment is more important or references another article it may deserve another color. Comments where we agree with the apologist might deserve a different color than where we disagree or where their claims represent immoral beliefs. - [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 20:33, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

== Doubting Thomas and Kirk Cameron? ==

I don't understand how the "[[I used to be an atheist]]" argument has precedent in [[Doubting Thomas]] (see [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=I_used_to_be_an_atheist&curid=1378&diff=7905&oldid=6269&rcid=6554 this change]). Could you please spell it out? --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 10:34, 15 December 2007 (CST)
:Expanded now; see article. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 18:40, 15 December 2007 (CST)

== citations ==

Are website citations and references possible on this wiki? I have yet to find a page that uses them, so I Decided it wouldn't be a bad idea to ask.
--[[User:Enshoku|Enshoku]] 21:12, 29 April 2008 (CDT)
:I think I know what you're talking about, but you might want to check with dcljr. He's kind of our resident Wiki technician.
--[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 06:50, 30 April 2008 (CDT)
::Will ask, thanks for the help!
--[[User:Enshoku|Enshoku]] 17:25, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

== Vandal ==

Watch for a Vandal calling himself Yerranos. He's a fundy Christian doing secular Wikis. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 13:32, 21 June 2008 (CDT)

:Thanks for the tip. I have to say I misread your message the first time, and I went through your own recent edits saying to myself, "Hey, Proxima Centauri doesn't sound so much like a vandal..." :) --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 10:31, 22 June 2008 (CDT)

Yeah, I've been meaning to talk to you about this. How do you make sure no one is vandalizing the wiki? What if some Christian like Yerranos starts deleting articles. Will our work be wasted?--[[User:Wissam hemadeh|wissam hemadeh]] 15:18, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

== Donations ==

Hello, Russell

I've been hoping you guys would get an automated donation system going by now, but decided to press the issue. I demand that you give me a way to send money to this project!

Hmm, let's see. I think there's supposed to be something I do at the end of a wiki edit. Maybe this is it. [[User:Beriukay|Beriukay]] 07:41, 13 May 2009 (CDT)

: Hi Beriukay, thanks for your interest. If you want to donate, I suggest you sent it to the Atheist Community of Austin and mark your donation as earmarked for Iron Chariots. You can donate at [http://atheist-community.org/donate/ this link].

:: Thanks Kazim. That was painless. [[User:Beriukay|Beriukay]]

== Short URL ==

You might've already considered it, or maybe even never thought about it, but having index.php?title= in the sites URLs looks yucky, unprofessional, and somewhat annoying if manually typing out an address. It's relatively easy to get rid of the index.php?title= part so it's like it is on Wikipedia. Instructions can be found [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Short_URL#Setup_steps here] - [[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 07:26, 17 June 2009 (CDT)

== Wiki Date / Time is off ==

The wiki's clock seems to be off by more than a week.... [[User:Jwissick|Jwissick]] 01:38, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

== A suggestion ==

I've been doing some research and found some huge websites related to religious issues. Unfortunately, Christians and Muslims dominate the web. I was thinking of doing some more group projects on this wiki, as in critiques of theistic websites, articles, books, debates, philosopgers (Craig, Plantinga, Swinburne, Behe) etc etc. I don't get the obsession with Ray Comfort- he's the dumbest person I've seen.--[[User:Wissam hemadeh|wissam hemadeh]] 15:27, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

Also, the wiki seems to have little insight on the religions themselves. What we have is great but take a look at this website for example, www.answering-islam.com >It's a Christian website which attacks Islam, and it is extraordinary.--[[User:Wissam hemadeh|wissam hemadeh]] 15:27, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

:Feel free to add them! --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 14:28, 15 April 2010 (CDT)

== Activation of LaTeX? ==

The UI for this site has a math button, but it doesn't work:

<math>\hat{H}|\psi\rangle = \frac{\partial}{\partial t} |\psi\rangle</math>

Is it possible to get this enabled? There's a basic guide here:

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Enable_TeX

I've done stuff kinda like this before; it could be time-consuming or trivial depending on what kind of server you've got set up. Just curious if this could be fixed. It's more than a little weird being on a site that talks about science and logic, and only having HTML to work with, but I know you guys are busy, so it's not a huge deal if that's all we've got.

== Christhiru is a Dick ==

I've never used wiki software before so I'm not sure if this is the right place to posit this, but every change the user Christhiru has made needs to be undone and his account needs to be banned. He basically deletes entire, valid, well formed, articles and occasionally adds a link to his sh*tty apologist blog. I have no idea how to go about undoing his many changes to the site or how to launch some kind of formal complaint, but Christhiru is a dick and he needs to be stopped ASAP.

== FF searchplugin ==

I've been trying to work out how to make an Iron Chariots searchplugin for firefox for the last few hours to no avail. Can you help me or defer to someone who could help me? I think it would also be a good idea to add an autodiscovery feature to the site just so people can 'add' the site to the search bar.

== Secularism and Xianity ==

Sorry for posting this on this talk page, but for some reason I cannot use the forum - I tried numerous times, used different names, but still it never allows me in. Anyway, Im here for some help. Over the years, I have heard from many Christians that their religion is responsible for creating many things (reason, science, democracy, morality, ect.) and I am sure we have heard some form of it once. For this, I recently created the article [[Christianity invented science]] and explained why it is wrong. I chose this one because it is growing in the conservative academia and Christian apologetic literature. However, there is just one more topic I want to address, the delusion that Christianity invented secularism. I would not bother with this unless it was no growing as well, but I see it very frequently. Anyway, I know we already have a article on separation of church and state, but I wanted to know if I should create an entirely new article refuting the stance that secularism is a Christian idea and separation of church and state was invented to keep government out of religion and not the other way around. What should I do? [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 15:35, 12 September 2011 (CDT)

:You probably should have read the instructions in the [http://forum.ironchariots.org/viewtopic.php?t=278 access request forum]. Anyway, I've added Feredir28 to the member group, I'm assuming that's you. [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 12:52, 13 September 2011 (CDT)

::Thank you, I shall move this topic to the forum. Pardons for not noticing that page. Yes, I'm Feredir. Again, thank you. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 14:08, 13 September 2011 (CDT)

== Ray Comfort ==

Have you plans to write a refutation of Ray Comfort’s views? [[Talk:Ray Comfort#"Favorite arguments" section|Two users are concerned]]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:08, 4 November 2011 (CDT)

Yeah, have there been any more advances on that? Oh and Kazim? we need another plug for iron chariots on the Non-Prophets, we havent had one FOREVER!....and congrats on the wedding!I made a [[Rick Perry]] page,and it has something on it about a group called the New Apostolic Reformation you should read...the youtube video I linked to summarizing it was rather good, it would be humorous on the show.....
[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

:I've already clearly expressed what I'd like the Ray Comfort page to look like on the associated talk page, and it doesn't include extensive argumentation -- that's for pages about arguments. I will try to remember to plug IC on Saturday, and I'll also be talking with Matt about what needs to happen next with software upgrades and anti-spam measures. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 17:16, 18 November 2011 (CST)

okay, thanks for the update. [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

= SPAM SUCKS! =
If you need another person to help delete spam, I'm game.I dont have much else to do, other than play xbox. [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

Talk:Shroud of Turin

2012-01-07T03:17:15Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: PLEASE READ!

WE NEED SOME RESEARCH DONE HERE BUT I SUCK AT RESEARCH. I HAVE HEARD TWO PEOPLE REFERRENCE THIS (including my deist brother) AND THINK WE NEED A PAGE ON THIS. why caps you ask? cause i felt like it.
Gunna look at rationalwiki and see what's there. [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

User talk:Proxima Centauri

2011-12-19T00:53:49Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Praise and Glory to the FSM! */

I’m lonely here as nobody has spoken to me yet. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:03, 24 July 2009 (CDT)
:Awww. There, there. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:46, 31 July 2009 (CDT)
::<irony>Thanks for being so understanding. </irony> [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:04, 1 August 2009 (CDT)
:Glad to see there are some folks who actually use the chat functions on these wiki pages. I mostly just edit, but I guess I'll have to check them. Off hand, you wouldn't happen to know if there's any way to encode formal logic on this page, would you? The standard wiki form doesn't work. - JStein (8:49, 9/13/2011)

I see you started a WOTM program review. *Big hugs* I have made multiple requests for help on RW, YouTube, and [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trolling_With_Logic TWL]. You are the first person to give a helping hand. Thanks mate, I really appreciate it. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 15:25, 6 October 2011 (CDT)

==Multiverse==
Any chance that we could not use the '''Multiverse''' "theory" here? It's currently an untestable claim that has no evidence to support it, not a scientific theory. I certainly agree that it's ''possible'', but until we have a way of detecting other universes, it's an irrational claim and not suitable for use in counter-apologetics. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 09:36, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

:[http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Kalam&curid=2213&diff=18138&oldid=18111&rcid=17057 I think the mustiverse theory prevents God being proved]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 11:10, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

::It does no such thing. The multiverse ''concept'' (please provide scientific evidence for the claim or stop calling it a theory) simply moves the problem up one level; a theist just has to claim that "God caused the multiverse to exist" and you're back where you started, plus you've added another unprovable claim to the mix. If anything, the concept of parallel universes could potentially be used to explain the conflicts between omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 20:54, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

I’ve taken it out as the issue is not worth so much trouble and I risk getting behind with refuting [[Ray Comfort]]. In my opinion the [[wikipedia:Multiverse|Muliverse]] is valid against [[Kalam]] because Kalam explicitly states, “Everything that '''starts to exist''' needs a cause and the Multiverse didn’t necessarily , '''start to exist'''. I agree the Multiverse does not work against general first cause arguments. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:35, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

==Ray Comfort==
Ray Comfort is, as they say on the Non-Prophets, an ASSHAT (anyone playing the Non-Prophets drinking game?). Pretend i said all this in an Australian pirate accent so it counts as six drinks if you are. Anyway, lets all unite against creationist asshats. I'm just doing some minor editing, correcting some spelling mistakes, maybe adding a sentence or two when needed. Does anyone else visit this site, or are the fundie asshats trying to get rid of us?
SOMEONE TELL ME HOW TO USE THE CHAT, i just did this by clicking edit on your page, then inserted my username how everyone else's was. [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]] 0334, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

You can find out how active the site is by [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges Clicking this link], alternatively you can click Recent changes 3 lines below the picture of the chariot and horses near the top left hand side of the page. To talk a user you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the Userpage and to talk about an article you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the article.

This is an atheist website and Christians can’t stop us being ungodly here, see [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Neutral point of view]]. [[User:Feredir28|Feredir28]] has been working very hard helping refute [[Ray Comfort]] as have others. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:04, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

Okay, thanks. You're on here too much, all the edits I see are from me, you, and two other people. Kazim and Sans Deity need to start "plugging" this site on the Non-Prophets and the Atheist Experience more, we need more people! [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

== Spam/vandalism ==

Lol, when I tried saving one of those marked as spam, I was told you had just deleted it. <impolite>Don't you have a life either?</impolite>

Is there no way we can upgrade the MediaWiki software? The latest version should make user-management, and thus spam-prevention, within easier reach. Sure, it will add some bureaucracy to new user creation, but won't it be worth it?

:You could try asking, [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]], he's the site owner. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:24, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

::I see he's probably too busy. Especially as an upgrade, apparently ANY upgrade beyond the current version, would require an upgrade of PHP. Which looks like it would involve the ISP...
::Something tells me that the most effective solution would be to find a new ISP, export and import, and then transfer the domain name to the new site. All of course without stealing the domain from Sans Deity.
::Isn't this interesting? I didn't even know there was a forum. How much more work would that involve?
::I can feel myself giving up here. --[[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 05:53, 9 October 2011 (CDT)
Bother... I think I'll leave you to it. I'll stick to fixing typos... --[[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 02:31, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

::: He's going to get to it after wedding season. Be patient please, no coup is required. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:05, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

I think the computer must have delayed before you found out I'd deleted that stuff. While I'm checking regularly I don't need delete templates but if ever I can't check for any reason delete templates will be very useful. Any admin who gets to delete just needs to go to [[:Category:Pages for deletion]] and find a bunch of articles all together ready to delete. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 10:12, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

== Clean up ==

I rolled back some changes and I don't have time to monitor and fix everything. I've been getting complaints about some regulars adding sloppy speculation and changing the site from informative to a personal, sloppy, speculative bitch-slapping of apologists. Dig through your changes....and wherever you've added unfounded accusations, speculations or snide comments - remove them. I'm going to check back after the wedding and if there aren't improvements, I'll be locking the site down, upgrading it and changing policies and permissions. This isn't a place to talk shit about apologists or post things that might cause unnecessary problems. You CANNOT simply toss around accusations about financial motivations - that leads to legal problems, and I'd prefer if people didn't post sloppy arguments. [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 01:22, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

:First, my thanks to Proxima about AtheistWiki, but before we go there mate, we have work to do. I will go through all my material on Ray Comfort - that includes the programs, books, and main page. Nobody here meant harm, but we will not be divide over this issue and continue to work together. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:03, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

I haven’t got time to go through your edits and I’m going to bed soon, I’ve had an infection recently. On this wiki are writers who’ve done really good hard hitting stuff about the [[Problem of evil]] and other difficult topics. '''Please write nothing here that could offend those writers or which those writers may not like.''' You can write snark and offensive stuff at RationalWiki or [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki], '''just don’t break any libel laws'''. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 13:42, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
*:I appreciate the fixes. Please take a moment to check out the newly added "types of pages" section under [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Editing guidelines]] for a little more guidance in how pages ought to look. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 18:16, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

== Atheist groups in ... ==

I suggest merging all those '''[[Special:Deadendpages|Atheist groups in some-country-or-state]]''' pages into one '''List of atheist groups''' page, organised, naturally, by continent, country and state. The current state of myriad miniature "articles" seems... silly.

May I? [[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 07:02, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

Please ask [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] or [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]], both know more about this wiki than I do. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 09:36, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

:Yes please. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:04, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

==Praise and Glory to the FSM!==
What do you think of the edit I did on the page about the FSM? We need a [[War on Christmas]] page, but I'm going to sleep, its 3 Am(pacific time)[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I like it but what the established administrators like counts for more here than what I like. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 06:17, 7 November 2011 (CST)

PLEASE CHECK MY NEW PAGE ON RICK PERRY. It needs more info, linked to my sources in the page, sorry i dont have time to look at my sources more and post more info, it is DAMNED important this gets up and running, as it might prevent another crazy religious president like Bush. One was enough. [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I have no problem about the article on [[Rick Perry]] but please check with [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] as he is the site owner. I suggest writing mainly material demonstrating that Perry’s position on religion is irrational as this wiki is primarily about countering irrational religion. I suggest checking the sources in the RationalWiki article for information but here you should write respectfully. Googling [http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=rick%20perry%2Breligious%20nut&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f9736ba80af0173&biw=1198&bih=541&pf=p&pdl=3000 rick perry+religious nut] will get you information that will sometimes need rewriting respectfully. Googling [http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=rick+perry%2Breligious%2Birrational&pbx=1&oq=rick+perry%2Breligious%2Birrational&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=44304l47432l0l50604l11l11l0l0l0l0l178l1412l3.8l11l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f9736ba80af0173&biw=1198&bih=541 rick perry+religious+irrational] will get information that won’t need rewording respectfully so often. I also suggest that you look for websites where political material is expected.

I’m from the UK and I don’t fully understand American politics, I personally fear Mitt Romney because he stands the biggest chance of defeating Obama as far as I know. [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Mitt_Romney Mitt Romney] flip flops so much nobody knows what he would do as president. RationalWiki accepts articles about all relevant issues over the [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/2012_U.S._Presidential_Election 2012 U.S. Presidential Election] and has articles about most of the [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/2012_U.S._Presidential_Election#Republican_Party possible Republican runners], you can register there and add to articles or write new ones but not all the editors are polite or well behaved. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

I'm from Canada (different time zones suck) and i dont think if i put the bit about the N.A.R. by itself it would really do anything......however, if it is linked to rick perry, then people will notice (hopefully....). i know sans deity is the site owner, i joined this site because i heard about it from some old episodes of the non prophets. My source is legitimate, as it is from national public radio, and it seems unbiased. i dunno, just put it up there because it seems to have some relevance to me.what's your personal opinion of those N.A.R. folks?
anyways, let me know if you need help deleting spam, i have some free time on my hands. Right now, i think this website is a damn good reference, dont you agree? [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I don't need help deleting spam as only administrators can delete. I don't know much about the N.A.R. Do you mean the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation New Apostolic Reformation]? I know no more about them than what's in the Wikipedia article. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

Yes, thats what i meant, the youtube video i linked is part of a series by that user that goes into detail about their beliefs (the npr article i posted,[http://www.npr.org/2011/08/24/139781021/the-evangelicals-engaged-in-spiritual-warfare Link] was great too, but less in detail and colorful, as well as being worth less laughs) , and how bat shit crazy they are. for the love of spaghetti, they think oprah is the freakin antichrist! they should cover that crap on the [[Non-Prophets]], it would get so many laughs! i mean, they are the new spanish inquisition without the torture and censorship (at the moment), and they are trying to gain popularity? thats like another hitler staging rock concerts![[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

So, whats religion like in the U.K.?[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

We have some street corner evangelists but most people in Britain are apathetic about religion or skeptical. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:07, 11 November 2011 (CST)

Just like here. I know two and only two christian people under 20. ahhh religion, die already.
Been lotsa spam lately huh?
[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I fear the spam will continue till one of the top administrators gets as [[Wikipedia:CAPTCHA|CAPTCHA]]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:11, 13 November 2011 (CST)

Meh, it just shows how morally "superior" theists are.[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]
How's my favorite heathen doing? I've been enjoying the new video game that just came out, Call of Duty, Modern Warfare 3. Do anything interesting? [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

Well, what have I been doing? [http://atheism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&limit=100 I’ve written any amount of stuff about Ray Comfort and other topics at Atheism Wiki]. I watched <s>mindless</s> inspiring video material by Ray Comfort so I could comment effectively.

I went for walks in local parks so I would get general exercise and wouldn’t just exercise my typing fingers. I read ordinary books and newspapers in cafes and libraries etc so I would spend some time away from my flat and my computer. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:01, 5 December 2011 (CST)

Sounds fun, I'm reading stuff on the website of the FSM, the hate mail is quite interesting. You play any video games (I need to further the stereotype of all atheists being nerds!!)?? I've been watching the latest American election stuffs, and i must say, the Republicans are really, really, really, really, really, realllllyyyy stupid this year. [[Rick Perry]], Michele Bachman, and Sarah Palin especially. Oh and another guy, Mitt Romney, put out an Obama smear ad, where he quoted Obama quoting someone else.... I swear, they are TRYING to lose. [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

RAtionalWiki has a '''[http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Category:2012_US_Presidential_Election Whole Category]''' with plenty or articles making fun of them all. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:09, 5 December 2011 (CST)

Are you on rational wiki? If so, can you add my bit about the New Apostolic Reformation from my [[Rick Perry]] page to theirs? [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

[http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rick_Perry#New_Apostolic_Reformation Done]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:03, 6 December 2011 (CST)

thanks for that, i want to spread the info about these <s>excellent, convincing, logical and well-read</s> theocratic people asap, as it could influence the upcoming election, and i dont want another bush....every vote counts. did you link my source? i linked to an article from national public radio as a source, which also happened to be the source of the video we both linked. have a good one =) [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I also started [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Theocracy_Watch Theocracy Watch] but I don't want to do too much because I'm from the UK and I don't understand American politics well enough. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 21:09, 6 December 2011 (CST)

American politics are simple. The democrats are honest and intelligent-ish (or at least as close as you can get to it, they are politicians you know....) and the republicans are <s> dumbshit, retarded, ignorant theocratic</s> rich people who like guns, hate taxes, and are ALWAYS opposed to abortion, contraception, atheism, church-state separation, and the <s> scientifically tried-and-true</s> theory of evolution. Republicans SOMEHOW get votes from <s>smart</s> southern voters...
[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

It looks like you';d appreciate '''[http://liberapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Liberapedia]'''. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:15, 7 December 2011 (CST)

I just think the "religious right" (the fundie portion of the republicans) needs to die. Soon.[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername]]

I thought of an edit you can make on the virgin mary page on rational wiki (and maybe here) i heard it refferenced once on the atheist experience that mary wasnt actually a virgin and that that was a translation error. May the google be with you.[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername]]

ALso, the Al-Qaeda page on rationalwiki is wrong. their full name is Al-Qaeda Al-Jahleed, which means the base of the holy war. The dropped in popularity due to the media shortening their name. Now, they have a porn site and a internet magazine....once, british hackers hacked the magazine and replaced the bomb recipe with a recipe for rocky road cupcakes (lol!).[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername]]

== Proposal for Ray Comfort articles ==

Hi Proxima,

I'd like to make a modest proposal regarding the large amount of work you've done on all of Ray Comfort's works. I'm still having the feeling that you're seeing Iron Chariots as a private sandbox to go after Comfort's entire body of work, and the articles you're generating are coming in too fast for anybody to review them, or perhaps even read them. They don't seem to be strongly cohesive integrated with the rest of the site, the main focus of which is to be a resource for specific arguments with organized responses. However, here's my alternate suggestion.

A more focused website that is centered around your special interest in Ray would probably be a very useful and more appropriate resource. Call it whatever you want, make it as polemic and opinionated as you want. Make it the official "I Hate Ray Comfort" site if you like. Heck, "ihateraycomfort.com" is available, and I'm sure you could come up with other variations that suit your intentions. You seem like somebody who knows how to set up a website, but if not I'd be happy to recommend resources for getting started, and if necessary, help migrate those articles to HTML pages.

I'd be more than happy to have one main article about Ray Comfort which, in addition to providing short explanations and links to his common arguments, also links to your site. You could include a paragraph-long blurb in the links section saying how thorough and extensive it is, and you would have full creative control over it without my (I'm sure) annoying meddling.

What do you say? --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 08:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Plus, you'd avoid my criticism when I actually do read one or two of the RC articles here. Thanks for removing the gay stereotyping from the "convert your family!" WotM episode review, though. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 10:32, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir did most of the work, I don't want to remove what he wrote. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 12:03, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:Maybe you could start something jointly? --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 12:26, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Thank you for inviting me to this discussion. My thoughts on Kazim's idea are mixed. When I first arrived on IronChariots, I was aware that it was used to confront specific theistic arguments, but when I saw that IC had only 4 review/critiques of Ray's programs and barely a paragraph for one of his books, I thought perhaps there was a little more to IC. At the time, I thought the least I could do was muster some time and man-power to expand IC operations. Now, while I am sure my time and hard work is much appreciated, the thought of having a website is intriguing but an unsure feeling keeps creeping around me.

Proxima, would it be more suiting if we moved all our work (both yours and mine) to Atheism.wiki or would an independent website created by the both of us be more suiting? If the conclusion would be a website, the next difficult part is to make something "uniqueness" I guess. Several rationalist websites confront Ray Comfort (such as forums like WeAreSMRT and the Rational Response Squad) but none of them give a "walk through" of Ray's materials, pointing out and documenting every flaw in Ray's material. For my own two cents: if I had my own website confronting creationists, it would not focus entirely on Ray Comfort. But before I go any further into that, we must first decide if a website would be the best option, and if it would be the case, I would do what I can to contribute. If not, we will work things out. What say you? [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:22, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:It seems that Proxima has already moved a lot of the material I always wished to preserve the most to Atheism.wikia, for which I am most grateful (and soon I will be a user to contribute more). The question of the website still remains open, where Proxima and I (and possibly more) can both decide how to format whatever as we see fit. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:35, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Now that Wolf's spoken up, I feel that there's a misinterpretation of "refuting specific theistic arguments". Ray doesn't make new theistic arguments in each of his works, he simply repeats the same arguments over and over (sometimes with minor variations). Once you've made pages for argument from design, personal revelation, and fear of hell, then made appropriate redirects to them (banana argument to argument from design, for example), you've got his entire body of work almost completely refuted. Having a page about him where it lists the specific arguments he makes and links to pages about those arguments is a good thing. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

For several years [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki] has stagnated because I thought working to build up this site and RationalWiki would help the cause more. Recently I decided working more on Atheism Wiki is worthwhile because this wiki caters for intellectuals and RationalWiki is becoming steadily more intellectual. Nobody is catering for less intellectual types like high school students with religious doubts.

This is your website, it’s your choice whether you keep the Way of the Master Series or not. I’m sorry that you want to delete it because Google ranks it very high on the first page. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:08, 15 November 2011 (CST)

It’s up to you, Feredir if you want to do your own blog, I’m more experienced with wikis but learning how to do a blog could be interesting. I plan to work hard on refuting Ray Comfort on Atheism Wiki for 3 reasons.
#I already know how to work with wikis.
#Transferring work from one wiki to another is quick and relatively little needs doing to refit the material.
#On a wiki there is always the chance other people with bad experience of Ray Comfort will join the wiki and help us. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:17, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:I agree with you Proxima regarding working on a wiki. I too would prefer to work on a wiki since I already know how to do it. I already have my own blog, but I prefer working on wikis like RationalWiki, and info travels faster I think that way since anyone can take the time to contribute and spread the word. I like the sense of teamwork, which is why I helped create [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trolling_With_Logic TWL] [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 14:30, 15 November 2011 (CST)

An unsure feeling keeps creeping around me too, I’m sure together we can make material on Atheism Wiki presentable, how long will it take before Google picks it up?

I agree we should deal with other fundamentalists as well as Ray Comfort. Feredir lives relatively near to Ray Comfort and has first-hand experience of his influence. So I thought, “OK, let’s spend six months or so refuting Ray Comfort, when we’ve dealt with Ray and Kirk exhaustively we can consider doing something else." My 2 cents are that the first priority should be to get [[The Way of the Master]] complete because red links in the template look bad. Once that’s completed, we can start work debunking other fundamentalists. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:What term are you googling to see ICW on the first page? The only one I saw when I just tried a few was "Ray Comfort", at the bottom. I think you underestimate people who have religious doubts and do them a disservice by thinking of them as "less intellectual", which would help explain why your approach to refuting RC's work is so odd. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

::I've already pointed out several times that Google collects data on individual users and tailors their results to what it thinks you want to see. Just because you see it first in the results doesn't mean that anyone else does. I don't even see it on the first page. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 16:49, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Another thing I want to check on is, did you create the atheism wikia page? If not, have you checked with the creators in advance to see if it fits their style guidelines? I'd hate for you to waste a bunch of additional work. That's one reason why I suggested that a personal web page (neither a wiki nor a blog, but a privately maintained and organized collection of articles) might be the way you want to go. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 16:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir and I both think people who've viewed a WOTM video should be able to find a refutation of that video. Also people who want to know what is in a WOTM video without watching it should be able to find the information. It's not up to you what we do on our own website. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 15:02, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:I'm not telling you what to do on your own website (why are you continuing to discuss it on this website, anyway? Do you or Feredir not have e-mail?), we crossposted because you write your replies over multiple posts instead of making use of the "show preview" button. My reply was aimed at your claims that the WotM refutations cater to "less intellectual" people, because if you're doing this with the idea that you're an intellectual and that you're writing for the benefit of people of lesser intelligence, you're just turning atheism into a form of "white man's burden" and failing at the very goal you're trying to achieve by doing all these refutations in the first place. Your work is getting bumped from RationalWiki and here because you refuse to see that. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 17:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

The articles I transfered to Atheism Wiki [http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&cp=16&gs_id=1q&xhr=t&q=the+way+of+the+master&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=the+way+of+the+m&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=afba954cc67558fd&biw=1180&bih=541 now rank high on Google] and that includes new material I've written there. Things have ended well, there's no longer any problem, it's up to the site owners how much [[:Category:Ray Comfort|Ray Comfort]] related material to keep here, I've copied it all. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:15, 5 December 2011 (CST)

== Deletions and restorations ==
I understand (from the thread above) that there have been problems with the Ray Comfort related articles lately, but [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=Proxima+Centauri&page= why have you deleted articles] that had extensive content ''before'' you even edited them? For example, you deleted (and I just restored) [[The Beauty of a Broken Spirit—Atheism (Way of the Master)]], [[The Firefighter (Way of the Master)]], and even [[Template:Wayofthemaster]], all of which were originally created and heavily edited by the founders of this wiki (and other administrators). In other words, those articles were not "yours to delete". I've restored all of them to their respective states before you and/or [[User:Feredir28|Feredir28]] first edited them (since I assume your intention was to remove your and his contributions, and you just got a bit sloppy doing that). You also deleted [[The Satanic Influence (Way of the Master)]], which neither of you ever edited in the first place. A quick glance through the deleted content didn't reveal anything inappropriate, so I've restored that article, too. I didn't restore any articles you or Feredir28 created. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 05:21, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:OK [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 08:13, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::Hi Dcljr, please check the bottom of the talk page on Ray Comfort. I requested that the reorganization happen, my preference is to cut down on / relocate the articles specifically addressing individual apologists' bodies of work. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:08, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::: Hmm. I [[Talk:Ray Comfort|still don't see]] where you suggested that all the articles be deleted, only particular contributions to them. Feel free to re-delete the articles, if you feel that's best. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 14:00, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::: I think you, Kazim and the other senior administrators should decide among yourselves what to do. I'm tired of all this. I'm tired of Jdog regularly making us angrier than we were before we read his comments. I'm tired of weeks of hard work followed by being told off by Kazim, Jdog and others. I'm tired of senior administrators leaving the wiki alone for long periods without saying what they want, then blaming Feredir and me when things are not their liking. That's the one and only time so far that I can remember when I've agreed with Jdog over anything important.

:::: I've copied what matters to Feredir and me to [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki] and it is up to you what you do here. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 15:18, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::: I haven't had time to consider this but my first suggestion is to leave things as [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] left it. I suspect Kazim and I were wrong to get everything deleted, the next phase in this argument could easily be that the authors of deleted material, (not by Feredir and me) will complain. Then the dispute could escalate with Jdog making criticisms all round. At least let's leave things as they are for a week or so to give cooling off time and to give the senior administrators time to think and discuss the issue. As I said I'm not keen to be involved further. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 16:35, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::::: (Apologies for continuing this on your talk page, but...) FWIW, I don't consider myself a "senior administrator". The only valid distinction, IMO, is between [[Special:Listusers/sysop|regular admins and bureaucrats]]. I don't know who [[User:EnthusOcn|EnthusOcn]] is, but the other 3 bureaucrats are the ones who founded the wiki in the first place, so they should decide what they want to do with it. I would point out, however, that four articles have been "featured" on the [[Main Page]] for years now, all point-by-point refutations of individual apologetical works. Are we not doing that anymore? This should be discussed on-wiki somewhere; I suggest [[Iron Chariots Wiki talk:Editing guidelines#What are we doing here?]], since this obviously has implications for what we want to say on that project page. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 17:54, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::::: More discussion was added at the Editing Guidelines talk page. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:02, 23 November 2011 (CST)

== Zeitgeist ==
Please do not add any more claims from the film [[Zeitgeist]]. The film is not a reliable source of information and most (if not all) of the claims made about religion are incorrect. --[[User:Andy|Andy]] 01:13, 10 December 2011 (CST)

I haven't put material from Zeitgeist into the wiki and I didn't know the film existed. I've now read the article on Zeitgeist and it appears the film includes truth and distortion so if material is in Zeitgeist that neither confirms not denies its accuracy. I refered to Mithra, Horus and others having similarities to Jesus from a different source. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:21, 10 December 2011 (CST)

:The source cited Zeitgeist as its source. It has been completely debunked. Please make an effort to use reliable sources. --[[User:Andy|Andy]] 01:28, 10 December 2011 (CST)

Talk:Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

2011-12-17T00:10:31Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?:

Wow. Until [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]] got here, the only counter-argument was two paragraphs and a sentence promoting eugenics? Going to remove those now, since advocating forming relationships based on genetics instead of love is sorta outside the scope of this wiki. Haven't seen the film, but I can touch up the new argument a bit, too. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 04:29, 4 November 2011 (CDT)

The film deals with eugenics, see [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expelled:_No_Intelligence_Allowed Wikipedia]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 13:48, 4 November 2011 (CDT)

I started editing this because I was going through all the old episodes of the [[Non-Prophets]], which also got me to sign up.[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

2011-12-17T00:08:47Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Expelled From Expelled */

"Expelled" is a 2008 film intended to support [[Intelligent Design]] and suppress scientific theories regarding [[evolution]].

===Arguments===
[[Ben Stein]] attempts to link evolution with communism, fascism, [[atheism]], Planned Parenthood, and the Nazi holocaust by correlating evolution to eugenics. The film further contends that an extensive conspiracy exists to promote Darwinism and suppress any concept of intelligent design. This conspiracy allegedly involves scientists, media, educators, and even the courts.

In his blog, Ben Stein claims:
<blockquote>Under a new anti-religious dogmatism, scientists and educators are not allowed to even think thoughts that involve an intelligent creator. Do you realize that some of the leading lights of "anti-intelligent design" would not allow a scientist who merely believed in the possibility of an intelligent designer/creator to work for him... EVEN IF HE NEVER MENTIONED the possibility of intelligent design in the universe? EVEN FOR HIS VERY THOUGHTS... HE WOULD BE BANNED. </blockquote>

===Counter-Arguments===
Ben said that they did two years of "extensive research" regarding evolution before doing this film. However, he has said evolution is "lightning striking a mud puddle" in several talk show interviews, which is a [[straw man|straw man argument]] against [[abiogenesis]], not evolution. One team extensively researching evolution for two years (with a bias towards the results) is also hardly on par with the numerous groups and individuals who have made researching evolution their life's work.

Eugenics is nothing more than the idea that artificial selection techniques, such as those used by animal breeders, can be used on humans as well. Evolution is the study of change, specifically, changes in biological forms. While the artificial selection techniques of eugenics and breeding do fit under this umbrella, the main concern of evolutionary study is the understanding of [[natural selection]].

While these techniques can, theoretically, be used against a population by forcing individuals to breed or sterilize themselves, in practice, eugenics are used by individuals to increase their quality of life and that of their children.

Dor Yeshorim, for example, is a genetic testing program that identifies harmful recessive genes in [[Judaism|Jews]]. When both parents have the same recessive gene, their offspring have a significant chance of contracting certain harmful or even fatal conditions. Eugenics come into play where Jews use this information in selecting a mate, deciding to have children, or deciding to abort a pregnancy. This form of eugenics helps prevent Tay-Sachs disease, Cystic Fibrosis, Canavan disease, Fanconi anemia, Familial Dysautonomia, Glycogen storage disease, Bloom's Syndrome, Gaucher Disease, Niemann-Pick Disease, and Mucolipidosis IV.

==Expelled From Expelled==
[[PZ Myers]] and [[Richard Dawkins]], who were both interviewed in Expelled (and thanked in the end credits), went to see a pre-release screening of the film. While waiting in line, Myers was recognized by event personnel and denied access, but Dawkins went unnoticed and attended the screening. During a Q&A session after the screening, hilarity ensued as Dawkins brought this up.

==External links==
* [http://www.expelledexposed.com/ Expelled Exposed]
* [http://www.youtube.com/user/ExpelledExposed ExpelledExposed's YouTube channel]
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwhZqNgfRC0 How To Watch Expelled with Correcting Subtitles]

[[Category:Movies]]
[[Category:Media]]

Talk:Sermon on the Mount

2011-12-16T05:05:55Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?:

Perhaps rather than the archaic KJV we should use the ESV? The ESV is a modern translation with moderately liberal copyright permission, as long as you're using < 1,000 verses you don't require their permission http://www.gnpcb.org/page/esv.copyright --RobHu

== Who template ==

Regarding my removal of the {{t|who}} template that was added to the lead section of this article, interested parties should see [[User talk:Mvuijlst]]. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 17:52, 2 November 2008 (CST)

== This page needs to be reverted to a previous version ==

[[DSand78]]'s edits butchered this page, removing practically all criticism of the sermon on the mount. It is amusing to look through the edits. I particularly liked how they replaced 'religious' with 'atheistic' in the rant against fasting before removing that section altogether.

DSand's edits need to be reverted imo.

--[[User:RDouglasEzell|RDouglasEzell]] 07:27, 25 November 2010 (CST)

: Agreed. Done. --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 08:17, 25 November 2010 (CST)

== Some sections could be seen as quote mining or out of context ==

Some of the criticisms could be seen as quote mining or taking things out of their historical context.

I will first address your criticisms of Matthew 7:13-23. I feel that to some extent these passages are taken out of context, to the extent they become more coherent when included with Matthew 7:24-27. When these passages are taken as a whole, then 22-23 can be interpreted as referring to those people who did not do good works but only claimed they did, perhaps in the form of 5:46-47. This interpretation does eliminate the contradiction, though the point about those who sincerely believe they are doing good works but in fact are not remains valid. '''Source:''' [http://www.enterthejabberwock.com/?p=429#more-429| Chick Dissection Flight 144]

Second, with respect to 5:38-41, there are [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turn_the_other_cheek#Straightforward_interpretation| more prosaic interpretations] that would be known to the contemporaries of Jesus. To some extent, the actions suggested are a form of brinkmanship, forcing the aggressor to break laws and social mores to continue with his action.

That being said, that these discussions about radically different interpretations can be held does not speak well of the bible's words being timeless or the sermon being proof of Jesus' divinity through its clarity.
=The Importance of Matthew 6:5-9=
We should have this part show more significance, like put it on the main page or something. I love to say this to relatives, people who pray in public, etc. [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

User talk:Kazim

2011-12-16T04:19:54Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* SPAM SUCKS! */

In the [[Special:Logs|Logs]], I see you deleted [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Searching]] on Aug 19th, saying, "''This is the second time this page has popped up as a redirect, and I don't know why''". I do. It's linked to from the [[Special:Search/fubar|Search results]] page when you do an unsuccessful search (follow last link to see example). - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 02:07, 26 August 2006 (MST)
: Actually, it shows up on [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?search=bible&fulltext=Search successful searches], too. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 02:36, 26 August 2006 (MST)

==Known issues==
Since registering a few hours ago, I've made an initial pass through the wiki (main navigation pages, special pages) looking for "obvious" problems. I've collected them at [[User:Dcljr/Sandbox]]. Basically, I wanted to give you (and [[User:Sans Deity|Matt]]) a heads-up before I go in changing everything. <w> - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 03:41, 26 August 2006 (MST)

== Spaces in URLs ==

I've replied on [[User talk:Dcljr#Wow|my talk page]]. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 03:13, 29 August 2006 (MST)

== Comment-box ==
The only extra typing which is required is "text=" (as you could just start the text section with <nowiki>'''Comment:'''</nowiki>). The old comment-box didn't format correctly in every situation (if, for example a picture or menu div or anything else exists to the right or left of it) which required me to make comment-box2 (to adjust the right margin) and might have eventually lead to comment-box3,4,5,6,7,8,9 (to adjust left margin or color or anything else). That could all be replaced with one template, so why not do it? Additionally, templates which use <nowiki>{{{1}}}</nowiki> (unnamed parameters) have additional limitations that prevent some "behind the scenes" stuff from working - unnamed parameters, for example, don't always work well when referencing one template from within another. - [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 10:44, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

: Actually, using "text=" AND typing the extra bolded word "comment" is a lot of extra typing, especially considering that it will be repeated many times over throughout the course of an article.
: Despite the issues you raised, it seems to me that the generic box is shorter and easier for most simple text. What if I reintroduced Comment-box and made it reference Comment-box1 as a special case? Then we could still use Comment-box1 any time we need to use a picture or whatever. -- [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:14, 10 September 2006 (CDT)
:: I guess that would be ok, the problem is that if people add pictures or sidebars later, without properly understanding the templates it's going to be a bit of work for them to figure out that the need to completely change which template is referenced. Instead of looking at the template in use and simply changing/adding a parameter, they now have to completely switch templates. I'd rather type a little extra now so that the only thing an editor would need to do is add a "width=" (or similar). I suppose it's ok to have a million templates but I just want the templates to be manageable and having one template that had a pretty solid default function while allowing optional parameters to be set. One thing we'll definitely want to do, either way, is categorize templates and make sure that they're well documented - which would include documenting all similar template.

:: Generally, I'm of the opinion that "Comment-box1" shouldn't be considered a "special case" template, it should be the default - because it's the one that doesn't suffer from the problems that "Comment-box" suffers from. But that's just me...add it if you like, I'll be typing the extra few characters. To me, it's not just about which solution requires me to type less, it's about which solution is more useful and simpler. Why learn many templates for comment boxes when you only have to learn one? Maybe we don't want every comment in a given article to have the "Comment:" preface, some should maybe be "See also:" or "Response:". Maybe we don't want them all to be the same color...if a particular comment is more important or references another article it may deserve another color. Comments where we agree with the apologist might deserve a different color than where we disagree or where their claims represent immoral beliefs. - [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 20:33, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

== Doubting Thomas and Kirk Cameron? ==

I don't understand how the "[[I used to be an atheist]]" argument has precedent in [[Doubting Thomas]] (see [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=I_used_to_be_an_atheist&curid=1378&diff=7905&oldid=6269&rcid=6554 this change]). Could you please spell it out? --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 10:34, 15 December 2007 (CST)
:Expanded now; see article. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 18:40, 15 December 2007 (CST)

== citations ==

Are website citations and references possible on this wiki? I have yet to find a page that uses them, so I Decided it wouldn't be a bad idea to ask.
--[[User:Enshoku|Enshoku]] 21:12, 29 April 2008 (CDT)
:I think I know what you're talking about, but you might want to check with dcljr. He's kind of our resident Wiki technician.
--[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 06:50, 30 April 2008 (CDT)
::Will ask, thanks for the help!
--[[User:Enshoku|Enshoku]] 17:25, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

== Vandal ==

Watch for a Vandal calling himself Yerranos. He's a fundy Christian doing secular Wikis. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 13:32, 21 June 2008 (CDT)

:Thanks for the tip. I have to say I misread your message the first time, and I went through your own recent edits saying to myself, "Hey, Proxima Centauri doesn't sound so much like a vandal..." :) --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 10:31, 22 June 2008 (CDT)

Yeah, I've been meaning to talk to you about this. How do you make sure no one is vandalizing the wiki? What if some Christian like Yerranos starts deleting articles. Will our work be wasted?--[[User:Wissam hemadeh|wissam hemadeh]] 15:18, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

== Donations ==

Hello, Russell

I've been hoping you guys would get an automated donation system going by now, but decided to press the issue. I demand that you give me a way to send money to this project!

Hmm, let's see. I think there's supposed to be something I do at the end of a wiki edit. Maybe this is it. [[User:Beriukay|Beriukay]] 07:41, 13 May 2009 (CDT)

: Hi Beriukay, thanks for your interest. If you want to donate, I suggest you sent it to the Atheist Community of Austin and mark your donation as earmarked for Iron Chariots. You can donate at [http://atheist-community.org/donate/ this link].

:: Thanks Kazim. That was painless. [[User:Beriukay|Beriukay]]

== Short URL ==

You might've already considered it, or maybe even never thought about it, but having index.php?title= in the sites URLs looks yucky, unprofessional, and somewhat annoying if manually typing out an address. It's relatively easy to get rid of the index.php?title= part so it's like it is on Wikipedia. Instructions can be found [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Short_URL#Setup_steps here] - [[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 07:26, 17 June 2009 (CDT)

== Wiki Date / Time is off ==

The wiki's clock seems to be off by more than a week.... [[User:Jwissick|Jwissick]] 01:38, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

== A suggestion ==

I've been doing some research and found some huge websites related to religious issues. Unfortunately, Christians and Muslims dominate the web. I was thinking of doing some more group projects on this wiki, as in critiques of theistic websites, articles, books, debates, philosopgers (Craig, Plantinga, Swinburne, Behe) etc etc. I don't get the obsession with Ray Comfort- he's the dumbest person I've seen.--[[User:Wissam hemadeh|wissam hemadeh]] 15:27, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

Also, the wiki seems to have little insight on the religions themselves. What we have is great but take a look at this website for example, www.answering-islam.com >It's a Christian website which attacks Islam, and it is extraordinary.--[[User:Wissam hemadeh|wissam hemadeh]] 15:27, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

:Feel free to add them! --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 14:28, 15 April 2010 (CDT)

== Activation of LaTeX? ==

The UI for this site has a math button, but it doesn't work:

<math>\hat{H}|\psi\rangle = \frac{\partial}{\partial t} |\psi\rangle</math>

Is it possible to get this enabled? There's a basic guide here:

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Enable_TeX

I've done stuff kinda like this before; it could be time-consuming or trivial depending on what kind of server you've got set up. Just curious if this could be fixed. It's more than a little weird being on a site that talks about science and logic, and only having HTML to work with, but I know you guys are busy, so it's not a huge deal if that's all we've got.

== Christhiru is a Dick ==

I've never used wiki software before so I'm not sure if this is the right place to posit this, but every change the user Christhiru has made needs to be undone and his account needs to be banned. He basically deletes entire, valid, well formed, articles and occasionally adds a link to his sh*tty apologist blog. I have no idea how to go about undoing his many changes to the site or how to launch some kind of formal complaint, but Christhiru is a dick and he needs to be stopped ASAP.

== FF searchplugin ==

I've been trying to work out how to make an Iron Chariots searchplugin for firefox for the last few hours to no avail. Can you help me or defer to someone who could help me? I think it would also be a good idea to add an autodiscovery feature to the site just so people can 'add' the site to the search bar.

== Secularism and Xianity ==

Sorry for posting this on this talk page, but for some reason I cannot use the forum - I tried numerous times, used different names, but still it never allows me in. Anyway, Im here for some help. Over the years, I have heard from many Christians that their religion is responsible for creating many things (reason, science, democracy, morality, ect.) and I am sure we have heard some form of it once. For this, I recently created the article [[Christianity invented science]] and explained why it is wrong. I chose this one because it is growing in the conservative academia and Christian apologetic literature. However, there is just one more topic I want to address, the delusion that Christianity invented secularism. I would not bother with this unless it was no growing as well, but I see it very frequently. Anyway, I know we already have a article on separation of church and state, but I wanted to know if I should create an entirely new article refuting the stance that secularism is a Christian idea and separation of church and state was invented to keep government out of religion and not the other way around. What should I do? [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 15:35, 12 September 2011 (CDT)

:You probably should have read the instructions in the [http://forum.ironchariots.org/viewtopic.php?t=278 access request forum]. Anyway, I've added Feredir28 to the member group, I'm assuming that's you. [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 12:52, 13 September 2011 (CDT)

::Thank you, I shall move this topic to the forum. Pardons for not noticing that page. Yes, I'm Feredir. Again, thank you. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 14:08, 13 September 2011 (CDT)

== Ray Comfort ==

Have you plans to write a refutation of Ray Comfort’s views? [[Talk:Ray Comfort#"Favorite arguments" section|Two users are concerned]]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:08, 4 November 2011 (CDT)

Yeah, have there been any more advances on that? Oh and Kazim? we need another plug for iron chariots on the Non-Prophets, we havent had one FOREVER!....and congrats on the wedding!I made a [[Rick Perry]] page,and it has something on it about a group called the New Apostolic Reformation you should read...the youtube video I linked to summarizing it was rather good, it would be humorous on the show.....
[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

:I've already clearly expressed what I'd like the Ray Comfort page to look like on the associated talk page, and it doesn't include extensive argumentation -- that's for pages about arguments. I will try to remember to plug IC on Saturday, and I'll also be talking with Matt about what needs to happen next with software upgrades and anti-spam measures. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 17:16, 18 November 2011 (CST)

okay, thanks for the update. [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

= SPAM SUCKS! =
If you need another person to help delete spam, I'm game. I dont have much else to do, other than play xbox. [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

2011-12-16T04:13:44Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Expelled From Expelled */

"Expelled" is a 2008 film intended to support [[Intelligent Design]] and suppress scientific theories regarding [[evolution]].

===Arguments===
[[Ben Stein]] attempts to link evolution with communism, fascism, [[atheism]], Planned Parenthood, and the Nazi holocaust by correlating evolution to eugenics. The film further contends that an extensive conspiracy exists to promote Darwinism and suppress any concept of intelligent design. This conspiracy allegedly involves scientists, media, educators, and even the courts.

In his blog, Ben Stein claims:
<blockquote>Under a new anti-religious dogmatism, scientists and educators are not allowed to even think thoughts that involve an intelligent creator. Do you realize that some of the leading lights of "anti-intelligent design" would not allow a scientist who merely believed in the possibility of an intelligent designer/creator to work for him... EVEN IF HE NEVER MENTIONED the possibility of intelligent design in the universe? EVEN FOR HIS VERY THOUGHTS... HE WOULD BE BANNED. </blockquote>

===Counter-Arguments===
Ben said that they did two years of "extensive research" regarding evolution before doing this film. However, he has said evolution is "lightning striking a mud puddle" in several talk show interviews, which is a [[straw man|straw man argument]] against [[abiogenesis]], not evolution. One team extensively researching evolution for two years (with a bias towards the results) is also hardly on par with the numerous groups and individuals who have made researching evolution their life's work.

Eugenics is nothing more than the idea that artificial selection techniques, such as those used by animal breeders, can be used on humans as well. Evolution is the study of change, specifically, changes in biological forms. While the artificial selection techniques of eugenics and breeding do fit under this umbrella, the main concern of evolutionary study is the understanding of [[natural selection]].

While these techniques can, theoretically, be used against a population by forcing individuals to breed or sterilize themselves, in practice, eugenics are used by individuals to increase their quality of life and that of their children.

Dor Yeshorim, for example, is a genetic testing program that identifies harmful recessive genes in [[Judaism|Jews]]. When both parents have the same recessive gene, their offspring have a significant chance of contracting certain harmful or even fatal conditions. Eugenics come into play where Jews use this information in selecting a mate, deciding to have children, or deciding to abort a pregnancy. This form of eugenics helps prevent Tay-Sachs disease, Cystic Fibrosis, Canavan disease, Fanconi anemia, Familial Dysautonomia, Glycogen storage disease, Bloom's Syndrome, Gaucher Disease, Niemann-Pick Disease, and Mucolipidosis IV.

=Expelled From Expelled=
[[PZ Myers]], who was interviewed in expelled, along with [[Richard Dawkins]] went to see a pre-release screening of Expelled in his local area. While he was waiting in line, a police officer came up to him and told him the person in charge told him not to let P. Z. in. However, PZ had brought [[Richard Dawkins]] as a guest, and they let him in. At the end of the screening, hilarity ensued as Dawkins brought this up. So much for us "Evilutionists" being pro-censorship.
==External links==
* [http://www.expelledexposed.com/ Expelled Exposed]
* [http://www.youtube.com/user/ExpelledExposed ExpelledExposed's YouTube channel]
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwhZqNgfRC0 How To Watch Expelled with Correcting Subtitles]

[[Category:Movies]]
[[Category:Media]]

Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

2011-12-16T04:12:23Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?:

"Expelled" is a 2008 film intended to support [[Intelligent Design]] and suppress scientific theories regarding [[evolution]].

===Arguments===
[[Ben Stein]] attempts to link evolution with communism, fascism, [[atheism]], Planned Parenthood, and the Nazi holocaust by correlating evolution to eugenics. The film further contends that an extensive conspiracy exists to promote Darwinism and suppress any concept of intelligent design. This conspiracy allegedly involves scientists, media, educators, and even the courts.

In his blog, Ben Stein claims:
<blockquote>Under a new anti-religious dogmatism, scientists and educators are not allowed to even think thoughts that involve an intelligent creator. Do you realize that some of the leading lights of "anti-intelligent design" would not allow a scientist who merely believed in the possibility of an intelligent designer/creator to work for him... EVEN IF HE NEVER MENTIONED the possibility of intelligent design in the universe? EVEN FOR HIS VERY THOUGHTS... HE WOULD BE BANNED. </blockquote>

===Counter-Arguments===
Ben said that they did two years of "extensive research" regarding evolution before doing this film. However, he has said evolution is "lightning striking a mud puddle" in several talk show interviews, which is a [[straw man|straw man argument]] against [[abiogenesis]], not evolution. One team extensively researching evolution for two years (with a bias towards the results) is also hardly on par with the numerous groups and individuals who have made researching evolution their life's work.

Eugenics is nothing more than the idea that artificial selection techniques, such as those used by animal breeders, can be used on humans as well. Evolution is the study of change, specifically, changes in biological forms. While the artificial selection techniques of eugenics and breeding do fit under this umbrella, the main concern of evolutionary study is the understanding of [[natural selection]].

While these techniques can, theoretically, be used against a population by forcing individuals to breed or sterilize themselves, in practice, eugenics are used by individuals to increase their quality of life and that of their children.

Dor Yeshorim, for example, is a genetic testing program that identifies harmful recessive genes in [[Judaism|Jews]]. When both parents have the same recessive gene, their offspring have a significant chance of contracting certain harmful or even fatal conditions. Eugenics come into play where Jews use this information in selecting a mate, deciding to have children, or deciding to abort a pregnancy. This form of eugenics helps prevent Tay-Sachs disease, Cystic Fibrosis, Canavan disease, Fanconi anemia, Familial Dysautonomia, Glycogen storage disease, Bloom's Syndrome, Gaucher Disease, Niemann-Pick Disease, and Mucolipidosis IV.

=Expelled From Expelled=
P. Z. Myers, who was interviewed in expelled, along with [[Richard Dawkins]] went to see a pre-release screening of Expelled in his local area. While he was waiting in line, a police officer came up to him and told him the person in charge told him not to let P. Z. in. However, P.Z. had brought [[Richard Dawkins]] as a guest, and they let him in. At the end of the screening, hilarity ensued as Dawkins brought this up. So much for us "Evilutionists" being pro-censorship.
==External links==
* [http://www.expelledexposed.com/ Expelled Exposed]
* [http://www.youtube.com/user/ExpelledExposed ExpelledExposed's YouTube channel]
* [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwhZqNgfRC0 How To Watch Expelled with Correcting Subtitles]

[[Category:Movies]]
[[Category:Media]]

User talk:Kazim

2011-12-13T02:16:38Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?:

In the [[Special:Logs|Logs]], I see you deleted [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Searching]] on Aug 19th, saying, "''This is the second time this page has popped up as a redirect, and I don't know why''". I do. It's linked to from the [[Special:Search/fubar|Search results]] page when you do an unsuccessful search (follow last link to see example). - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 02:07, 26 August 2006 (MST)
: Actually, it shows up on [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?search=bible&fulltext=Search successful searches], too. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 02:36, 26 August 2006 (MST)

==Known issues==
Since registering a few hours ago, I've made an initial pass through the wiki (main navigation pages, special pages) looking for "obvious" problems. I've collected them at [[User:Dcljr/Sandbox]]. Basically, I wanted to give you (and [[User:Sans Deity|Matt]]) a heads-up before I go in changing everything. <w> - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 03:41, 26 August 2006 (MST)

== Spaces in URLs ==

I've replied on [[User talk:Dcljr#Wow|my talk page]]. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 03:13, 29 August 2006 (MST)

== Comment-box ==
The only extra typing which is required is "text=" (as you could just start the text section with <nowiki>'''Comment:'''</nowiki>). The old comment-box didn't format correctly in every situation (if, for example a picture or menu div or anything else exists to the right or left of it) which required me to make comment-box2 (to adjust the right margin) and might have eventually lead to comment-box3,4,5,6,7,8,9 (to adjust left margin or color or anything else). That could all be replaced with one template, so why not do it? Additionally, templates which use <nowiki>{{{1}}}</nowiki> (unnamed parameters) have additional limitations that prevent some "behind the scenes" stuff from working - unnamed parameters, for example, don't always work well when referencing one template from within another. - [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 10:44, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

: Actually, using "text=" AND typing the extra bolded word "comment" is a lot of extra typing, especially considering that it will be repeated many times over throughout the course of an article.
: Despite the issues you raised, it seems to me that the generic box is shorter and easier for most simple text. What if I reintroduced Comment-box and made it reference Comment-box1 as a special case? Then we could still use Comment-box1 any time we need to use a picture or whatever. -- [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:14, 10 September 2006 (CDT)
:: I guess that would be ok, the problem is that if people add pictures or sidebars later, without properly understanding the templates it's going to be a bit of work for them to figure out that the need to completely change which template is referenced. Instead of looking at the template in use and simply changing/adding a parameter, they now have to completely switch templates. I'd rather type a little extra now so that the only thing an editor would need to do is add a "width=" (or similar). I suppose it's ok to have a million templates but I just want the templates to be manageable and having one template that had a pretty solid default function while allowing optional parameters to be set. One thing we'll definitely want to do, either way, is categorize templates and make sure that they're well documented - which would include documenting all similar template.

:: Generally, I'm of the opinion that "Comment-box1" shouldn't be considered a "special case" template, it should be the default - because it's the one that doesn't suffer from the problems that "Comment-box" suffers from. But that's just me...add it if you like, I'll be typing the extra few characters. To me, it's not just about which solution requires me to type less, it's about which solution is more useful and simpler. Why learn many templates for comment boxes when you only have to learn one? Maybe we don't want every comment in a given article to have the "Comment:" preface, some should maybe be "See also:" or "Response:". Maybe we don't want them all to be the same color...if a particular comment is more important or references another article it may deserve another color. Comments where we agree with the apologist might deserve a different color than where we disagree or where their claims represent immoral beliefs. - [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 20:33, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

== Doubting Thomas and Kirk Cameron? ==

I don't understand how the "[[I used to be an atheist]]" argument has precedent in [[Doubting Thomas]] (see [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=I_used_to_be_an_atheist&curid=1378&diff=7905&oldid=6269&rcid=6554 this change]). Could you please spell it out? --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 10:34, 15 December 2007 (CST)
:Expanded now; see article. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 18:40, 15 December 2007 (CST)

== citations ==

Are website citations and references possible on this wiki? I have yet to find a page that uses them, so I Decided it wouldn't be a bad idea to ask.
--[[User:Enshoku|Enshoku]] 21:12, 29 April 2008 (CDT)
:I think I know what you're talking about, but you might want to check with dcljr. He's kind of our resident Wiki technician.
--[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 06:50, 30 April 2008 (CDT)
::Will ask, thanks for the help!
--[[User:Enshoku|Enshoku]] 17:25, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

== Vandal ==

Watch for a Vandal calling himself Yerranos. He's a fundy Christian doing secular Wikis. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 13:32, 21 June 2008 (CDT)

:Thanks for the tip. I have to say I misread your message the first time, and I went through your own recent edits saying to myself, "Hey, Proxima Centauri doesn't sound so much like a vandal..." :) --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 10:31, 22 June 2008 (CDT)

Yeah, I've been meaning to talk to you about this. How do you make sure no one is vandalizing the wiki? What if some Christian like Yerranos starts deleting articles. Will our work be wasted?--[[User:Wissam hemadeh|wissam hemadeh]] 15:18, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

== Donations ==

Hello, Russell

I've been hoping you guys would get an automated donation system going by now, but decided to press the issue. I demand that you give me a way to send money to this project!

Hmm, let's see. I think there's supposed to be something I do at the end of a wiki edit. Maybe this is it. [[User:Beriukay|Beriukay]] 07:41, 13 May 2009 (CDT)

: Hi Beriukay, thanks for your interest. If you want to donate, I suggest you sent it to the Atheist Community of Austin and mark your donation as earmarked for Iron Chariots. You can donate at [http://atheist-community.org/donate/ this link].

:: Thanks Kazim. That was painless. [[User:Beriukay|Beriukay]]

== Short URL ==

You might've already considered it, or maybe even never thought about it, but having index.php?title= in the sites URLs looks yucky, unprofessional, and somewhat annoying if manually typing out an address. It's relatively easy to get rid of the index.php?title= part so it's like it is on Wikipedia. Instructions can be found [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Short_URL#Setup_steps here] - [[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 07:26, 17 June 2009 (CDT)

== Wiki Date / Time is off ==

The wiki's clock seems to be off by more than a week.... [[User:Jwissick|Jwissick]] 01:38, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

== A suggestion ==

I've been doing some research and found some huge websites related to religious issues. Unfortunately, Christians and Muslims dominate the web. I was thinking of doing some more group projects on this wiki, as in critiques of theistic websites, articles, books, debates, philosopgers (Craig, Plantinga, Swinburne, Behe) etc etc. I don't get the obsession with Ray Comfort- he's the dumbest person I've seen.--[[User:Wissam hemadeh|wissam hemadeh]] 15:27, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

Also, the wiki seems to have little insight on the religions themselves. What we have is great but take a look at this website for example, www.answering-islam.com >It's a Christian website which attacks Islam, and it is extraordinary.--[[User:Wissam hemadeh|wissam hemadeh]] 15:27, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

:Feel free to add them! --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 14:28, 15 April 2010 (CDT)

== Activation of LaTeX? ==

The UI for this site has a math button, but it doesn't work:

<math>\hat{H}|\psi\rangle = \frac{\partial}{\partial t} |\psi\rangle</math>

Is it possible to get this enabled? There's a basic guide here:

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Enable_TeX

I've done stuff kinda like this before; it could be time-consuming or trivial depending on what kind of server you've got set up. Just curious if this could be fixed. It's more than a little weird being on a site that talks about science and logic, and only having HTML to work with, but I know you guys are busy, so it's not a huge deal if that's all we've got.

== Christhiru is a Dick ==

I've never used wiki software before so I'm not sure if this is the right place to posit this, but every change the user Christhiru has made needs to be undone and his account needs to be banned. He basically deletes entire, valid, well formed, articles and occasionally adds a link to his sh*tty apologist blog. I have no idea how to go about undoing his many changes to the site or how to launch some kind of formal complaint, but Christhiru is a dick and he needs to be stopped ASAP.

== FF searchplugin ==

I've been trying to work out how to make an Iron Chariots searchplugin for firefox for the last few hours to no avail. Can you help me or defer to someone who could help me? I think it would also be a good idea to add an autodiscovery feature to the site just so people can 'add' the site to the search bar.

== Secularism and Xianity ==

Sorry for posting this on this talk page, but for some reason I cannot use the forum - I tried numerous times, used different names, but still it never allows me in. Anyway, Im here for some help. Over the years, I have heard from many Christians that their religion is responsible for creating many things (reason, science, democracy, morality, ect.) and I am sure we have heard some form of it once. For this, I recently created the article [[Christianity invented science]] and explained why it is wrong. I chose this one because it is growing in the conservative academia and Christian apologetic literature. However, there is just one more topic I want to address, the delusion that Christianity invented secularism. I would not bother with this unless it was no growing as well, but I see it very frequently. Anyway, I know we already have a article on separation of church and state, but I wanted to know if I should create an entirely new article refuting the stance that secularism is a Christian idea and separation of church and state was invented to keep government out of religion and not the other way around. What should I do? [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 15:35, 12 September 2011 (CDT)

:You probably should have read the instructions in the [http://forum.ironchariots.org/viewtopic.php?t=278 access request forum]. Anyway, I've added Feredir28 to the member group, I'm assuming that's you. [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 12:52, 13 September 2011 (CDT)

::Thank you, I shall move this topic to the forum. Pardons for not noticing that page. Yes, I'm Feredir. Again, thank you. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 14:08, 13 September 2011 (CDT)

== Ray Comfort ==

Have you plans to write a refutation of Ray Comfort’s views? [[Talk:Ray Comfort#"Favorite arguments" section|Two users are concerned]]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:08, 4 November 2011 (CDT)

Yeah, have there been any more advances on that? Oh and Kazim? we need another plug for iron chariots on the Non-Prophets, we havent had one FOREVER!....and congrats on the wedding!I made a [[Rick Perry]] page,and it has something on it about a group called the New Apostolic Reformation you should read...the youtube video I linked to summarizing it was rather good, it would be humorous on the show.....
[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

:I've already clearly expressed what I'd like the Ray Comfort page to look like on the associated talk page, and it doesn't include extensive argumentation -- that's for pages about arguments. I will try to remember to plug IC on Saturday, and I'll also be talking with Matt about what needs to happen next with software upgrades and anti-spam measures. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 17:16, 18 November 2011 (CST)

okay, thanks for the update. [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

= SPAM SUCKS! =
If you need another person to help delete spam, I'm game. I dont have much else to do, other than play xbox. [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

User talk:Proxima Centauri

2011-12-10T08:36:41Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Praise and Glory to the FSM! */

I’m lonely here as nobody has spoken to me yet. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:03, 24 July 2009 (CDT)
:Awww. There, there. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:46, 31 July 2009 (CDT)
::<irony>Thanks for being so understanding. </irony> [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:04, 1 August 2009 (CDT)
:Glad to see there are some folks who actually use the chat functions on these wiki pages. I mostly just edit, but I guess I'll have to check them. Off hand, you wouldn't happen to know if there's any way to encode formal logic on this page, would you? The standard wiki form doesn't work. - JStein (8:49, 9/13/2011)

I see you started a WOTM program review. *Big hugs* I have made multiple requests for help on RW, YouTube, and [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trolling_With_Logic TWL]. You are the first person to give a helping hand. Thanks mate, I really appreciate it. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 15:25, 6 October 2011 (CDT)

==Multiverse==
Any chance that we could not use the '''Multiverse''' "theory" here? It's currently an untestable claim that has no evidence to support it, not a scientific theory. I certainly agree that it's ''possible'', but until we have a way of detecting other universes, it's an irrational claim and not suitable for use in counter-apologetics. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 09:36, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

:[http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Kalam&curid=2213&diff=18138&oldid=18111&rcid=17057 I think the mustiverse theory prevents God being proved]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 11:10, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

::It does no such thing. The multiverse ''concept'' (please provide scientific evidence for the claim or stop calling it a theory) simply moves the problem up one level; a theist just has to claim that "God caused the multiverse to exist" and you're back where you started, plus you've added another unprovable claim to the mix. If anything, the concept of parallel universes could potentially be used to explain the conflicts between omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 20:54, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

I’ve taken it out as the issue is not worth so much trouble and I risk getting behind with refuting [[Ray Comfort]]. In my opinion the [[wikipedia:Multiverse|Muliverse]] is valid against [[Kalam]] because Kalam explicitly states, “Everything that '''starts to exist''' needs a cause and the Multiverse didn’t necessarily , '''start to exist'''. I agree the Multiverse does not work against general first cause arguments. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:35, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

==Ray Comfort==
Ray Comfort is, as they say on the Non-Prophets, an ASSHAT (anyone playing the Non-Prophets drinking game?). Pretend i said all this in an Australian pirate accent so it counts as six drinks if you are. Anyway, lets all unite against creationist asshats. I'm just doing some minor editing, correcting some spelling mistakes, maybe adding a sentence or two when needed. Does anyone else visit this site, or are the fundie asshats trying to get rid of us?
SOMEONE TELL ME HOW TO USE THE CHAT, i just did this by clicking edit on your page, then inserted my username how everyone else's was. [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]] 0334, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

You can find out how active the site is by [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges Clicking this link], alternatively you can click Recent changes 3 lines below the picture of the chariot and horses near the top left hand side of the page. To talk a user you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the Userpage and to talk about an article you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the article.

This is an atheist website and Christians can’t stop us being ungodly here, see [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Neutral point of view]]. [[User:Feredir28|Feredir28]] has been working very hard helping refute [[Ray Comfort]] as have others. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:04, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

Okay, thanks. You're on here too much, all the edits I see are from me, you, and two other people. Kazim and Sans Deity need to start "plugging" this site on the Non-Prophets and the Atheist Experience more, we need more people! [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

== Spam/vandalism ==

Lol, when I tried saving one of those marked as spam, I was told you had just deleted it. <impolite>Don't you have a life either?</impolite>

Is there no way we can upgrade the MediaWiki software? The latest version should make user-management, and thus spam-prevention, within easier reach. Sure, it will add some bureaucracy to new user creation, but won't it be worth it?

:You could try asking, [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]], he's the site owner. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:24, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

::I see he's probably too busy. Especially as an upgrade, apparently ANY upgrade beyond the current version, would require an upgrade of PHP. Which looks like it would involve the ISP...
::Something tells me that the most effective solution would be to find a new ISP, export and import, and then transfer the domain name to the new site. All of course without stealing the domain from Sans Deity.
::Isn't this interesting? I didn't even know there was a forum. How much more work would that involve?
::I can feel myself giving up here. --[[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 05:53, 9 October 2011 (CDT)
Bother... I think I'll leave you to it. I'll stick to fixing typos... --[[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 02:31, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

::: He's going to get to it after wedding season. Be patient please, no coup is required. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:05, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

I think the computer must have delayed before you found out I'd deleted that stuff. While I'm checking regularly I don't need delete templates but if ever I can't check for any reason delete templates will be very useful. Any admin who gets to delete just needs to go to [[:Category:Pages for deletion]] and find a bunch of articles all together ready to delete. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 10:12, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

== Clean up ==

I rolled back some changes and I don't have time to monitor and fix everything. I've been getting complaints about some regulars adding sloppy speculation and changing the site from informative to a personal, sloppy, speculative bitch-slapping of apologists. Dig through your changes....and wherever you've added unfounded accusations, speculations or snide comments - remove them. I'm going to check back after the wedding and if there aren't improvements, I'll be locking the site down, upgrading it and changing policies and permissions. This isn't a place to talk shit about apologists or post things that might cause unnecessary problems. You CANNOT simply toss around accusations about financial motivations - that leads to legal problems, and I'd prefer if people didn't post sloppy arguments. [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 01:22, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

:First, my thanks to Proxima about AtheistWiki, but before we go there mate, we have work to do. I will go through all my material on Ray Comfort - that includes the programs, books, and main page. Nobody here meant harm, but we will not be divide over this issue and continue to work together. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:03, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

I haven’t got time to go through your edits and I’m going to bed soon, I’ve had an infection recently. On this wiki are writers who’ve done really good hard hitting stuff about the [[Problem of evil]] and other difficult topics. '''Please write nothing here that could offend those writers or which those writers may not like.''' You can write snark and offensive stuff at RationalWiki or [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki], '''just don’t break any libel laws'''. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 13:42, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
*:I appreciate the fixes. Please take a moment to check out the newly added "types of pages" section under [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Editing guidelines]] for a little more guidance in how pages ought to look. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 18:16, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

== Atheist groups in ... ==

I suggest merging all those '''[[Special:Deadendpages|Atheist groups in some-country-or-state]]''' pages into one '''List of atheist groups''' page, organised, naturally, by continent, country and state. The current state of myriad miniature "articles" seems... silly.

May I? [[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 07:02, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

Please ask [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] or [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]], both know more about this wiki than I do. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 09:36, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

:Yes please. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:04, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

==Praise and Glory to the FSM!==
What do you think of the edit I did on the page about the FSM? We need a [[War on Christmas]] page, but I'm going to sleep, its 3 Am(pacific time)[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I like it but what the established administrators like counts for more here than what I like. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 06:17, 7 November 2011 (CST)

PLEASE CHECK MY NEW PAGE ON RICK PERRY. It needs more info, linked to my sources in the page, sorry i dont have time to look at my sources more and post more info, it is DAMNED important this gets up and running, as it might prevent another crazy religious president like Bush. One was enough. [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I have no problem about the article on [[Rick Perry]] but please check with [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] as he is the site owner. I suggest writing mainly material demonstrating that Perry’s position on religion is irrational as this wiki is primarily about countering irrational religion. I suggest checking the sources in the RationalWiki article for information but here you should write respectfully. Googling [http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=rick%20perry%2Breligious%20nut&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f9736ba80af0173&biw=1198&bih=541&pf=p&pdl=3000 rick perry+religious nut] will get you information that will sometimes need rewriting respectfully. Googling [http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=rick+perry%2Breligious%2Birrational&pbx=1&oq=rick+perry%2Breligious%2Birrational&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=44304l47432l0l50604l11l11l0l0l0l0l178l1412l3.8l11l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f9736ba80af0173&biw=1198&bih=541 rick perry+religious+irrational] will get information that won’t need rewording respectfully so often. I also suggest that you look for websites where political material is expected.

I’m from the UK and I don’t fully understand American politics, I personally fear Mitt Romney because he stands the biggest chance of defeating Obama as far as I know. [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Mitt_Romney Mitt Romney] flip flops so much nobody knows what he would do as president. RationalWiki accepts articles about all relevant issues over the [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/2012_U.S._Presidential_Election 2012 U.S. Presidential Election] and has articles about most of the [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/2012_U.S._Presidential_Election#Republican_Party possible Republican runners], you can register there and add to articles or write new ones but not all the editors are polite or well behaved. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

I'm from Canada (different time zones suck) and i dont think if i put the bit about the N.A.R. by itself it would really do anything......however, if it is linked to rick perry, then people will notice (hopefully....). i know sans deity is the site owner, i joined this site because i heard about it from some old episodes of the non prophets. My source is legitimate, as it is from national public radio, and it seems unbiased. i dunno, just put it up there because it seems to have some relevance to me.what's your personal opinion of those N.A.R. folks?
anyways, let me know if you need help deleting spam, i have some free time on my hands. Right now, i think this website is a damn good reference, dont you agree? [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I don't need help deleting spam as only administrators can delete. I don't know much about the N.A.R. Do you mean the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation New Apostolic Reformation]? I know no more about them than what's in the Wikipedia article. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

Yes, thats what i meant, the youtube video i linked is part of a series by that user that goes into detail about their beliefs (the npr article i posted,[http://www.npr.org/2011/08/24/139781021/the-evangelicals-engaged-in-spiritual-warfare Link] was great too, but less in detail and colorful, as well as being worth less laughs) , and how bat shit crazy they are. for the love of spaghetti, they think oprah is the freakin antichrist! they should cover that crap on the [[Non-Prophets]], it would get so many laughs! i mean, they are the new spanish inquisition without the torture and censorship (at the moment), and they are trying to gain popularity? thats like another hitler staging rock concerts![[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

So, whats religion like in the U.K.?[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

We have some street corner evangelists but most people in Britain are apathetic about religion or skeptical. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:07, 11 November 2011 (CST)

Just like here. I know two and only two christian people under 20. ahhh religion, die already.
Been lotsa spam lately huh?
[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I fear the spam will continue till one of the top administrators gets as [[Wikipedia:CAPTCHA|CAPTCHA]]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:11, 13 November 2011 (CST)

Meh, it just shows how morally "superior" theists are.[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]
How's my favorite heathen doing? I've been enjoying the new video game that just came out, Call of Duty, Modern Warfare 3. Do anything interesting? [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

Well, what have I been doing? [http://atheism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&limit=100 I’ve written any amount of stuff about Ray Comfort and other topics at Atheism Wiki]. I watched <s>mindless</s> inspiring video material by Ray Comfort so I could comment effectively.

I went for walks in local parks so I would get general exercise and wouldn’t just exercise my typing fingers. I read ordinary books and newspapers in cafes and libraries etc so I would spend some time away from my flat and my computer. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:01, 5 December 2011 (CST)

Sounds fun, I'm reading stuff on the website of the FSM, the hate mail is quite interesting. You play any video games (I need to further the stereotype of all atheists being nerds!!)?? I've been watching the latest American election stuffs, and i must say, the Republicans are really, really, really, really, really, realllllyyyy stupid this year. [[Rick Perry]], Michele Bachman, and Sarah Palin especially. Oh and another guy, Mitt Romney, put out an Obama smear ad, where he quoted Obama quoting someone else.... I swear, they are TRYING to lose. [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

RAtionalWiki has a '''[http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Category:2012_US_Presidential_Election Whole Category]''' with plenty or articles making fun of them all. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:09, 5 December 2011 (CST)

Are you on rational wiki? If so, can you add my bit about the New Apostolic Reformation from my [[Rick Perry]] page to theirs? [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

[http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rick_Perry#New_Apostolic_Reformation Done]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:03, 6 December 2011 (CST)

thanks for that, i want to spread the info about these <s>excellent, convincing, logical and well-read</s> theocratic people asap, as it could influence the upcoming election, and i dont want another bush....every vote counts. did you link my source? i linked to an article from national public radio as a source, which also happened to be the source of the video we both linked. have a good one =) [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I also started [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Theocracy_Watch Theocracy Watch] but I don't want to do too much because I'm from the UK and I don't understand American politics well enough. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 21:09, 6 December 2011 (CST)

American politics are simple. The democrats are honest and intelligent-ish (or at least as close as you can get to it, they are politicians you know....) and the republicans are <s> dumbshit, retarded, ignorant theocratic</s> rich people who like guns, hate taxes, and are ALWAYS opposed to abortion, contraception, atheism, church-state separation, and the <s> scientifically tried-and-true</s> theory of evolution. Republicans SOMEHOW get votes from <s>smart</s> southern voters...
[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

It looks like you';d appreciate '''[http://liberapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Liberapedia]'''. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:15, 7 December 2011 (CST)

I just think the "religious right" (the fundie portion of the republicans) needs to die. Soon.[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername]]

I thought of an edit you can make on the virgin mary page on rational wiki (and maybe here) i heard it refferenced once on the atheist experience that mary wasnt actually a virgin and that that was a translation error. May the google be with you.[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername]]

You still alive?[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername]]

== Proposal for Ray Comfort articles ==

Hi Proxima,

I'd like to make a modest proposal regarding the large amount of work you've done on all of Ray Comfort's works. I'm still having the feeling that you're seeing Iron Chariots as a private sandbox to go after Comfort's entire body of work, and the articles you're generating are coming in too fast for anybody to review them, or perhaps even read them. They don't seem to be strongly cohesive integrated with the rest of the site, the main focus of which is to be a resource for specific arguments with organized responses. However, here's my alternate suggestion.

A more focused website that is centered around your special interest in Ray would probably be a very useful and more appropriate resource. Call it whatever you want, make it as polemic and opinionated as you want. Make it the official "I Hate Ray Comfort" site if you like. Heck, "ihateraycomfort.com" is available, and I'm sure you could come up with other variations that suit your intentions. You seem like somebody who knows how to set up a website, but if not I'd be happy to recommend resources for getting started, and if necessary, help migrate those articles to HTML pages.

I'd be more than happy to have one main article about Ray Comfort which, in addition to providing short explanations and links to his common arguments, also links to your site. You could include a paragraph-long blurb in the links section saying how thorough and extensive it is, and you would have full creative control over it without my (I'm sure) annoying meddling.

What do you say? --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 08:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Plus, you'd avoid my criticism when I actually do read one or two of the RC articles here. Thanks for removing the gay stereotyping from the "convert your family!" WotM episode review, though. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 10:32, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir did most of the work, I don't want to remove what he wrote. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 12:03, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:Maybe you could start something jointly? --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 12:26, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Thank you for inviting me to this discussion. My thoughts on Kazim's idea are mixed. When I first arrived on IronChariots, I was aware that it was used to confront specific theistic arguments, but when I saw that IC had only 4 review/critiques of Ray's programs and barely a paragraph for one of his books, I thought perhaps there was a little more to IC. At the time, I thought the least I could do was muster some time and man-power to expand IC operations. Now, while I am sure my time and hard work is much appreciated, the thought of having a website is intriguing but an unsure feeling keeps creeping around me.

Proxima, would it be more suiting if we moved all our work (both yours and mine) to Atheism.wiki or would an independent website created by the both of us be more suiting? If the conclusion would be a website, the next difficult part is to make something "uniqueness" I guess. Several rationalist websites confront Ray Comfort (such as forums like WeAreSMRT and the Rational Response Squad) but none of them give a "walk through" of Ray's materials, pointing out and documenting every flaw in Ray's material. For my own two cents: if I had my own website confronting creationists, it would not focus entirely on Ray Comfort. But before I go any further into that, we must first decide if a website would be the best option, and if it would be the case, I would do what I can to contribute. If not, we will work things out. What say you? [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:22, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:It seems that Proxima has already moved a lot of the material I always wished to preserve the most to Atheism.wikia, for which I am most grateful (and soon I will be a user to contribute more). The question of the website still remains open, where Proxima and I (and possibly more) can both decide how to format whatever as we see fit. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:35, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Now that Wolf's spoken up, I feel that there's a misinterpretation of "refuting specific theistic arguments". Ray doesn't make new theistic arguments in each of his works, he simply repeats the same arguments over and over (sometimes with minor variations). Once you've made pages for argument from design, personal revelation, and fear of hell, then made appropriate redirects to them (banana argument to argument from design, for example), you've got his entire body of work almost completely refuted. Having a page about him where it lists the specific arguments he makes and links to pages about those arguments is a good thing. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

For several years [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki] has stagnated because I thought working to build up this site and RationalWiki would help the cause more. Recently I decided working more on Atheism Wiki is worthwhile because this wiki caters for intellectuals and RationalWiki is becoming steadily more intellectual. Nobody is catering for less intellectual types like high school students with religious doubts.

This is your website, it’s your choice whether you keep the Way of the Master Series or not. I’m sorry that you want to delete it because Google ranks it very high on the first page. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:08, 15 November 2011 (CST)

It’s up to you, Feredir if you want to do your own blog, I’m more experienced with wikis but learning how to do a blog could be interesting. I plan to work hard on refuting Ray Comfort on Atheism Wiki for 3 reasons.
#I already know how to work with wikis.
#Transferring work from one wiki to another is quick and relatively little needs doing to refit the material.
#On a wiki there is always the chance other people with bad experience of Ray Comfort will join the wiki and help us. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:17, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:I agree with you Proxima regarding working on a wiki. I too would prefer to work on a wiki since I already know how to do it. I already have my own blog, but I prefer working on wikis like RationalWiki, and info travels faster I think that way since anyone can take the time to contribute and spread the word. I like the sense of teamwork, which is why I helped create [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trolling_With_Logic TWL] [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 14:30, 15 November 2011 (CST)

An unsure feeling keeps creeping around me too, I’m sure together we can make material on Atheism Wiki presentable, how long will it take before Google picks it up?

I agree we should deal with other fundamentalists as well as Ray Comfort. Feredir lives relatively near to Ray Comfort and has first-hand experience of his influence. So I thought, “OK, let’s spend six months or so refuting Ray Comfort, when we’ve dealt with Ray and Kirk exhaustively we can consider doing something else." My 2 cents are that the first priority should be to get [[The Way of the Master]] complete because red links in the template look bad. Once that’s completed, we can start work debunking other fundamentalists. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:What term are you googling to see ICW on the first page? The only one I saw when I just tried a few was "Ray Comfort", at the bottom. I think you underestimate people who have religious doubts and do them a disservice by thinking of them as "less intellectual", which would help explain why your approach to refuting RC's work is so odd. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

::I've already pointed out several times that Google collects data on individual users and tailors their results to what it thinks you want to see. Just because you see it first in the results doesn't mean that anyone else does. I don't even see it on the first page. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 16:49, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Another thing I want to check on is, did you create the atheism wikia page? If not, have you checked with the creators in advance to see if it fits their style guidelines? I'd hate for you to waste a bunch of additional work. That's one reason why I suggested that a personal web page (neither a wiki nor a blog, but a privately maintained and organized collection of articles) might be the way you want to go. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 16:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir and I both think people who've viewed a WOTM video should be able to find a refutation of that video. Also people who want to know what is in a WOTM video without watching it should be able to find the information. It's not up to you what we do on our own website. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 15:02, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:I'm not telling you what to do on your own website (why are you continuing to discuss it on this website, anyway? Do you or Feredir not have e-mail?), we crossposted because you write your replies over multiple posts instead of making use of the "show preview" button. My reply was aimed at your claims that the WotM refutations cater to "less intellectual" people, because if you're doing this with the idea that you're an intellectual and that you're writing for the benefit of people of lesser intelligence, you're just turning atheism into a form of "white man's burden" and failing at the very goal you're trying to achieve by doing all these refutations in the first place. Your work is getting bumped from RationalWiki and here because you refuse to see that. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 17:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

The articles I transfered to Atheism Wiki [http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&cp=16&gs_id=1q&xhr=t&q=the+way+of+the+master&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=the+way+of+the+m&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=afba954cc67558fd&biw=1180&bih=541 now rank high on Google] and that includes new material I've written there. Things have ended well, there's no longer any problem, it's up to the site owners how much [[:Category:Ray Comfort|Ray Comfort]] related material to keep here, I've copied it all. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:15, 5 December 2011 (CST)

== Deletions and restorations ==
I understand (from the thread above) that there have been problems with the Ray Comfort related articles lately, but [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=Proxima+Centauri&page= why have you deleted articles] that had extensive content ''before'' you even edited them? For example, you deleted (and I just restored) [[The Beauty of a Broken Spirit—Atheism (Way of the Master)]], [[The Firefighter (Way of the Master)]], and even [[Template:Wayofthemaster]], all of which were originally created and heavily edited by the founders of this wiki (and other administrators). In other words, those articles were not "yours to delete". I've restored all of them to their respective states before you and/or [[User:Feredir28|Feredir28]] first edited them (since I assume your intention was to remove your and his contributions, and you just got a bit sloppy doing that). You also deleted [[The Satanic Influence (Way of the Master)]], which neither of you ever edited in the first place. A quick glance through the deleted content didn't reveal anything inappropriate, so I've restored that article, too. I didn't restore any articles you or Feredir28 created. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 05:21, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:OK [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 08:13, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::Hi Dcljr, please check the bottom of the talk page on Ray Comfort. I requested that the reorganization happen, my preference is to cut down on / relocate the articles specifically addressing individual apologists' bodies of work. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:08, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::: Hmm. I [[Talk:Ray Comfort|still don't see]] where you suggested that all the articles be deleted, only particular contributions to them. Feel free to re-delete the articles, if you feel that's best. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 14:00, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::: I think you, Kazim and the other senior administrators should decide among yourselves what to do. I'm tired of all this. I'm tired of Jdog regularly making us angrier than we were before we read his comments. I'm tired of weeks of hard work followed by being told off by Kazim, Jdog and others. I'm tired of senior administrators leaving the wiki alone for long periods without saying what they want, then blaming Feredir and me when things are not their liking. That's the one and only time so far that I can remember when I've agreed with Jdog over anything important.

:::: I've copied what matters to Feredir and me to [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki] and it is up to you what you do here. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 15:18, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::: I haven't had time to consider this but my first suggestion is to leave things as [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] left it. I suspect Kazim and I were wrong to get everything deleted, the next phase in this argument could easily be that the authors of deleted material, (not by Feredir and me) will complain. Then the dispute could escalate with Jdog making criticisms all round. At least let's leave things as they are for a week or so to give cooling off time and to give the senior administrators time to think and discuss the issue. As I said I'm not keen to be involved further. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 16:35, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::::: (Apologies for continuing this on your talk page, but...) FWIW, I don't consider myself a "senior administrator". The only valid distinction, IMO, is between [[Special:Listusers/sysop|regular admins and bureaucrats]]. I don't know who [[User:EnthusOcn|EnthusOcn]] is, but the other 3 bureaucrats are the ones who founded the wiki in the first place, so they should decide what they want to do with it. I would point out, however, that four articles have been "featured" on the [[Main Page]] for years now, all point-by-point refutations of individual apologetical works. Are we not doing that anymore? This should be discussed on-wiki somewhere; I suggest [[Iron Chariots Wiki talk:Editing guidelines#What are we doing here?]], since this obviously has implications for what we want to say on that project page. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 17:54, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::::: More discussion was added at the Editing Guidelines talk page. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:02, 23 November 2011 (CST)

== Zeitgeist ==
Please do not add any more claims from the film [[Zeitgeist]]. The film is not a reliable source of information and most (if not all) of the claims made about religion are incorrect. --[[User:Andy|Andy]] 01:13, 10 December 2011 (CST)

I haven't put material from Zeitgeist into the wiki and I didn't know the film existed. I've now read the article on Zeitgeist and it appears the film includes truth and distortion so if material is in Zeitgeist that neither confirms not denies its accuracy. I refered to Mithra, Horus and others having similarities to Jesus from a different source. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:21, 10 December 2011 (CST)

:The source cited Zeitgeist as its source. It has been completely debunked. Please make an effort to use reliable sources. --[[User:Andy|Andy]] 01:28, 10 December 2011 (CST)

User talk:Proxima Centauri

2011-12-09T08:11:22Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Praise and Glory to the FSM! */

I’m lonely here as nobody has spoken to me yet. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:03, 24 July 2009 (CDT)
:Awww. There, there. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:46, 31 July 2009 (CDT)
::<irony>Thanks for being so understanding. </irony> [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:04, 1 August 2009 (CDT)
:Glad to see there are some folks who actually use the chat functions on these wiki pages. I mostly just edit, but I guess I'll have to check them. Off hand, you wouldn't happen to know if there's any way to encode formal logic on this page, would you? The standard wiki form doesn't work. - JStein (8:49, 9/13/2011)

I see you started a WOTM program review. *Big hugs* I have made multiple requests for help on RW, YouTube, and [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trolling_With_Logic TWL]. You are the first person to give a helping hand. Thanks mate, I really appreciate it. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 15:25, 6 October 2011 (CDT)

==Multiverse==
Any chance that we could not use the '''Multiverse''' "theory" here? It's currently an untestable claim that has no evidence to support it, not a scientific theory. I certainly agree that it's ''possible'', but until we have a way of detecting other universes, it's an irrational claim and not suitable for use in counter-apologetics. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 09:36, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

:[http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Kalam&curid=2213&diff=18138&oldid=18111&rcid=17057 I think the mustiverse theory prevents God being proved]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 11:10, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

::It does no such thing. The multiverse ''concept'' (please provide scientific evidence for the claim or stop calling it a theory) simply moves the problem up one level; a theist just has to claim that "God caused the multiverse to exist" and you're back where you started, plus you've added another unprovable claim to the mix. If anything, the concept of parallel universes could potentially be used to explain the conflicts between omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 20:54, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

I’ve taken it out as the issue is not worth so much trouble and I risk getting behind with refuting [[Ray Comfort]]. In my opinion the [[wikipedia:Multiverse|Muliverse]] is valid against [[Kalam]] because Kalam explicitly states, “Everything that '''starts to exist''' needs a cause and the Multiverse didn’t necessarily , '''start to exist'''. I agree the Multiverse does not work against general first cause arguments. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:35, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

==Ray Comfort==
Ray Comfort is, as they say on the Non-Prophets, an ASSHAT (anyone playing the Non-Prophets drinking game?). Pretend i said all this in an Australian pirate accent so it counts as six drinks if you are. Anyway, lets all unite against creationist asshats. I'm just doing some minor editing, correcting some spelling mistakes, maybe adding a sentence or two when needed. Does anyone else visit this site, or are the fundie asshats trying to get rid of us?
SOMEONE TELL ME HOW TO USE THE CHAT, i just did this by clicking edit on your page, then inserted my username how everyone else's was. [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]] 0334, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

You can find out how active the site is by [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges Clicking this link], alternatively you can click Recent changes 3 lines below the picture of the chariot and horses near the top left hand side of the page. To talk a user you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the Userpage and to talk about an article you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the article.

This is an atheist website and Christians can’t stop us being ungodly here, see [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Neutral point of view]]. [[User:Feredir28|Feredir28]] has been working very hard helping refute [[Ray Comfort]] as have others. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:04, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

Okay, thanks. You're on here too much, all the edits I see are from me, you, and two other people. Kazim and Sans Deity need to start "plugging" this site on the Non-Prophets and the Atheist Experience more, we need more people! [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

== Spam/vandalism ==

Lol, when I tried saving one of those marked as spam, I was told you had just deleted it. <impolite>Don't you have a life either?</impolite>

Is there no way we can upgrade the MediaWiki software? The latest version should make user-management, and thus spam-prevention, within easier reach. Sure, it will add some bureaucracy to new user creation, but won't it be worth it?

:You could try asking, [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]], he's the site owner. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:24, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

::I see he's probably too busy. Especially as an upgrade, apparently ANY upgrade beyond the current version, would require an upgrade of PHP. Which looks like it would involve the ISP...
::Something tells me that the most effective solution would be to find a new ISP, export and import, and then transfer the domain name to the new site. All of course without stealing the domain from Sans Deity.
::Isn't this interesting? I didn't even know there was a forum. How much more work would that involve?
::I can feel myself giving up here. --[[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 05:53, 9 October 2011 (CDT)
Bother... I think I'll leave you to it. I'll stick to fixing typos... --[[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 02:31, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

::: He's going to get to it after wedding season. Be patient please, no coup is required. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:05, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

I think the computer must have delayed before you found out I'd deleted that stuff. While I'm checking regularly I don't need delete templates but if ever I can't check for any reason delete templates will be very useful. Any admin who gets to delete just needs to go to [[:Category:Pages for deletion]] and find a bunch of articles all together ready to delete. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 10:12, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

== Clean up ==

I rolled back some changes and I don't have time to monitor and fix everything. I've been getting complaints about some regulars adding sloppy speculation and changing the site from informative to a personal, sloppy, speculative bitch-slapping of apologists. Dig through your changes....and wherever you've added unfounded accusations, speculations or snide comments - remove them. I'm going to check back after the wedding and if there aren't improvements, I'll be locking the site down, upgrading it and changing policies and permissions. This isn't a place to talk shit about apologists or post things that might cause unnecessary problems. You CANNOT simply toss around accusations about financial motivations - that leads to legal problems, and I'd prefer if people didn't post sloppy arguments. [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 01:22, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

:First, my thanks to Proxima about AtheistWiki, but before we go there mate, we have work to do. I will go through all my material on Ray Comfort - that includes the programs, books, and main page. Nobody here meant harm, but we will not be divide over this issue and continue to work together. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:03, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

I haven’t got time to go through your edits and I’m going to bed soon, I’ve had an infection recently. On this wiki are writers who’ve done really good hard hitting stuff about the [[Problem of evil]] and other difficult topics. '''Please write nothing here that could offend those writers or which those writers may not like.''' You can write snark and offensive stuff at RationalWiki or [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki], '''just don’t break any libel laws'''. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 13:42, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
*:I appreciate the fixes. Please take a moment to check out the newly added "types of pages" section under [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Editing guidelines]] for a little more guidance in how pages ought to look. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 18:16, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

== Atheist groups in ... ==

I suggest merging all those '''[[Special:Deadendpages|Atheist groups in some-country-or-state]]''' pages into one '''List of atheist groups''' page, organised, naturally, by continent, country and state. The current state of myriad miniature "articles" seems... silly.

May I? [[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 07:02, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

Please ask [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] or [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]], both know more about this wiki than I do. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 09:36, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

:Yes please. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:04, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

==Praise and Glory to the FSM!==
What do you think of the edit I did on the page about the FSM? We need a [[War on Christmas]] page, but I'm going to sleep, its 3 Am(pacific time)[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I like it but what the established administrators like counts for more here than what I like. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 06:17, 7 November 2011 (CST)

PLEASE CHECK MY NEW PAGE ON RICK PERRY. It needs more info, linked to my sources in the page, sorry i dont have time to look at my sources more and post more info, it is DAMNED important this gets up and running, as it might prevent another crazy religious president like Bush. One was enough. [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I have no problem about the article on [[Rick Perry]] but please check with [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] as he is the site owner. I suggest writing mainly material demonstrating that Perry’s position on religion is irrational as this wiki is primarily about countering irrational religion. I suggest checking the sources in the RationalWiki article for information but here you should write respectfully. Googling [http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=rick%20perry%2Breligious%20nut&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f9736ba80af0173&biw=1198&bih=541&pf=p&pdl=3000 rick perry+religious nut] will get you information that will sometimes need rewriting respectfully. Googling [http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=rick+perry%2Breligious%2Birrational&pbx=1&oq=rick+perry%2Breligious%2Birrational&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=44304l47432l0l50604l11l11l0l0l0l0l178l1412l3.8l11l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f9736ba80af0173&biw=1198&bih=541 rick perry+religious+irrational] will get information that won’t need rewording respectfully so often. I also suggest that you look for websites where political material is expected.

I’m from the UK and I don’t fully understand American politics, I personally fear Mitt Romney because he stands the biggest chance of defeating Obama as far as I know. [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Mitt_Romney Mitt Romney] flip flops so much nobody knows what he would do as president. RationalWiki accepts articles about all relevant issues over the [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/2012_U.S._Presidential_Election 2012 U.S. Presidential Election] and has articles about most of the [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/2012_U.S._Presidential_Election#Republican_Party possible Republican runners], you can register there and add to articles or write new ones but not all the editors are polite or well behaved. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

I'm from Canada (different time zones suck) and i dont think if i put the bit about the N.A.R. by itself it would really do anything......however, if it is linked to rick perry, then people will notice (hopefully....). i know sans deity is the site owner, i joined this site because i heard about it from some old episodes of the non prophets. My source is legitimate, as it is from national public radio, and it seems unbiased. i dunno, just put it up there because it seems to have some relevance to me.what's your personal opinion of those N.A.R. folks?
anyways, let me know if you need help deleting spam, i have some free time on my hands. Right now, i think this website is a damn good reference, dont you agree? [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I don't need help deleting spam as only administrators can delete. I don't know much about the N.A.R. Do you mean the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation New Apostolic Reformation]? I know no more about them than what's in the Wikipedia article. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

Yes, thats what i meant, the youtube video i linked is part of a series by that user that goes into detail about their beliefs (the npr article i posted,[http://www.npr.org/2011/08/24/139781021/the-evangelicals-engaged-in-spiritual-warfare Link] was great too, but less in detail and colorful, as well as being worth less laughs) , and how bat shit crazy they are. for the love of spaghetti, they think oprah is the freakin antichrist! they should cover that crap on the [[Non-Prophets]], it would get so many laughs! i mean, they are the new spanish inquisition without the torture and censorship (at the moment), and they are trying to gain popularity? thats like another hitler staging rock concerts![[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

So, whats religion like in the U.K.?[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

We have some street corner evangelists but most people in Britain are apathetic about religion or skeptical. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:07, 11 November 2011 (CST)

Just like here. I know two and only two christian people under 20. ahhh religion, die already.
Been lotsa spam lately huh?
[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I fear the spam will continue till one of the top administrators gets as [[Wikipedia:CAPTCHA|CAPTCHA]]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:11, 13 November 2011 (CST)

Meh, it just shows how morally "superior" theists are.[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]
How's my favorite heathen doing? I've been enjoying the new video game that just came out, Call of Duty, Modern Warfare 3. Do anything interesting? [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

Well, what have I been doing? [http://atheism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&limit=100 I’ve written any amount of stuff about Ray Comfort and other topics at Atheism Wiki]. I watched <s>mindless</s> inspiring video material by Ray Comfort so I could comment effectively.

I went for walks in local parks so I would get general exercise and wouldn’t just exercise my typing fingers. I read ordinary books and newspapers in cafes and libraries etc so I would spend some time away from my flat and my computer. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:01, 5 December 2011 (CST)

Sounds fun, I'm reading stuff on the website of the FSM, the hate mail is quite interesting. You play any video games (I need to further the stereotype of all atheists being nerds!!)?? I've been watching the latest American election stuffs, and i must say, the Republicans are really, really, really, really, really, realllllyyyy stupid this year. [[Rick Perry]], Michele Bachman, and Sarah Palin especially. Oh and another guy, Mitt Romney, put out an Obama smear ad, where he quoted Obama quoting someone else.... I swear, they are TRYING to lose. [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

RAtionalWiki has a '''[http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Category:2012_US_Presidential_Election Whole Category]''' with plenty or articles making fun of them all. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:09, 5 December 2011 (CST)

Are you on rational wiki? If so, can you add my bit about the New Apostolic Reformation from my [[Rick Perry]] page to theirs? [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

[http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rick_Perry#New_Apostolic_Reformation Done]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:03, 6 December 2011 (CST)

thanks for that, i want to spread the info about these <s>excellent, convincing, logical and well-read</s> theocratic people asap, as it could influence the upcoming election, and i dont want another bush....every vote counts. did you link my source? i linked to an article from national public radio as a source, which also happened to be the source of the video we both linked. have a good one =) [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I also started [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Theocracy_Watch Theocracy Watch] but I don't want to do too much because I'm from the UK and I don't understand American politics well enough. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 21:09, 6 December 2011 (CST)

American politics are simple. The democrats are honest and intelligent-ish (or at least as close as you can get to it, they are politicians you know....) and the republicans are <s> dumbshit, retarded, ignorant theocratic</s> rich people who like guns, hate taxes, and are ALWAYS opposed to abortion, contraception, atheism, church-state separation, and the <s> scientifically tried-and-true</s> theory of evolution. Republicans SOMEHOW get votes from <s>smart</s> southern voters...
[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

It looks like you';d appreciate '''[http://liberapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Liberapedia]'''. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:15, 7 December 2011 (CST)

I just think the "religious right" (the fundie portion of the republicans) needs to die. Soon.[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername]]

I thought of an edit you can make on the virgin mary page on rational wiki (and maybe here) i heard it refferenced once on the atheist experience that mary wasnt actually a virgin and that that was a translation error. May the google be with you.[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername]]

== Proposal for Ray Comfort articles ==

Hi Proxima,

I'd like to make a modest proposal regarding the large amount of work you've done on all of Ray Comfort's works. I'm still having the feeling that you're seeing Iron Chariots as a private sandbox to go after Comfort's entire body of work, and the articles you're generating are coming in too fast for anybody to review them, or perhaps even read them. They don't seem to be strongly cohesive integrated with the rest of the site, the main focus of which is to be a resource for specific arguments with organized responses. However, here's my alternate suggestion.

A more focused website that is centered around your special interest in Ray would probably be a very useful and more appropriate resource. Call it whatever you want, make it as polemic and opinionated as you want. Make it the official "I Hate Ray Comfort" site if you like. Heck, "ihateraycomfort.com" is available, and I'm sure you could come up with other variations that suit your intentions. You seem like somebody who knows how to set up a website, but if not I'd be happy to recommend resources for getting started, and if necessary, help migrate those articles to HTML pages.

I'd be more than happy to have one main article about Ray Comfort which, in addition to providing short explanations and links to his common arguments, also links to your site. You could include a paragraph-long blurb in the links section saying how thorough and extensive it is, and you would have full creative control over it without my (I'm sure) annoying meddling.

What do you say? --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 08:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Plus, you'd avoid my criticism when I actually do read one or two of the RC articles here. Thanks for removing the gay stereotyping from the "convert your family!" WotM episode review, though. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 10:32, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir did most of the work, I don't want to remove what he wrote. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 12:03, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:Maybe you could start something jointly? --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 12:26, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Thank you for inviting me to this discussion. My thoughts on Kazim's idea are mixed. When I first arrived on IronChariots, I was aware that it was used to confront specific theistic arguments, but when I saw that IC had only 4 review/critiques of Ray's programs and barely a paragraph for one of his books, I thought perhaps there was a little more to IC. At the time, I thought the least I could do was muster some time and man-power to expand IC operations. Now, while I am sure my time and hard work is much appreciated, the thought of having a website is intriguing but an unsure feeling keeps creeping around me.

Proxima, would it be more suiting if we moved all our work (both yours and mine) to Atheism.wiki or would an independent website created by the both of us be more suiting? If the conclusion would be a website, the next difficult part is to make something "uniqueness" I guess. Several rationalist websites confront Ray Comfort (such as forums like WeAreSMRT and the Rational Response Squad) but none of them give a "walk through" of Ray's materials, pointing out and documenting every flaw in Ray's material. For my own two cents: if I had my own website confronting creationists, it would not focus entirely on Ray Comfort. But before I go any further into that, we must first decide if a website would be the best option, and if it would be the case, I would do what I can to contribute. If not, we will work things out. What say you? [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:22, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:It seems that Proxima has already moved a lot of the material I always wished to preserve the most to Atheism.wikia, for which I am most grateful (and soon I will be a user to contribute more). The question of the website still remains open, where Proxima and I (and possibly more) can both decide how to format whatever as we see fit. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:35, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Now that Wolf's spoken up, I feel that there's a misinterpretation of "refuting specific theistic arguments". Ray doesn't make new theistic arguments in each of his works, he simply repeats the same arguments over and over (sometimes with minor variations). Once you've made pages for argument from design, personal revelation, and fear of hell, then made appropriate redirects to them (banana argument to argument from design, for example), you've got his entire body of work almost completely refuted. Having a page about him where it lists the specific arguments he makes and links to pages about those arguments is a good thing. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

For several years [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki] has stagnated because I thought working to build up this site and RationalWiki would help the cause more. Recently I decided working more on Atheism Wiki is worthwhile because this wiki caters for intellectuals and RationalWiki is becoming steadily more intellectual. Nobody is catering for less intellectual types like high school students with religious doubts.

This is your website, it’s your choice whether you keep the Way of the Master Series or not. I’m sorry that you want to delete it because Google ranks it very high on the first page. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:08, 15 November 2011 (CST)

It’s up to you, Feredir if you want to do your own blog, I’m more experienced with wikis but learning how to do a blog could be interesting. I plan to work hard on refuting Ray Comfort on Atheism Wiki for 3 reasons.
#I already know how to work with wikis.
#Transferring work from one wiki to another is quick and relatively little needs doing to refit the material.
#On a wiki there is always the chance other people with bad experience of Ray Comfort will join the wiki and help us. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:17, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:I agree with you Proxima regarding working on a wiki. I too would prefer to work on a wiki since I already know how to do it. I already have my own blog, but I prefer working on wikis like RationalWiki, and info travels faster I think that way since anyone can take the time to contribute and spread the word. I like the sense of teamwork, which is why I helped create [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trolling_With_Logic TWL] [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 14:30, 15 November 2011 (CST)

An unsure feeling keeps creeping around me too, I’m sure together we can make material on Atheism Wiki presentable, how long will it take before Google picks it up?

I agree we should deal with other fundamentalists as well as Ray Comfort. Feredir lives relatively near to Ray Comfort and has first-hand experience of his influence. So I thought, “OK, let’s spend six months or so refuting Ray Comfort, when we’ve dealt with Ray and Kirk exhaustively we can consider doing something else." My 2 cents are that the first priority should be to get [[The Way of the Master]] complete because red links in the template look bad. Once that’s completed, we can start work debunking other fundamentalists. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:What term are you googling to see ICW on the first page? The only one I saw when I just tried a few was "Ray Comfort", at the bottom. I think you underestimate people who have religious doubts and do them a disservice by thinking of them as "less intellectual", which would help explain why your approach to refuting RC's work is so odd. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

::I've already pointed out several times that Google collects data on individual users and tailors their results to what it thinks you want to see. Just because you see it first in the results doesn't mean that anyone else does. I don't even see it on the first page. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 16:49, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Another thing I want to check on is, did you create the atheism wikia page? If not, have you checked with the creators in advance to see if it fits their style guidelines? I'd hate for you to waste a bunch of additional work. That's one reason why I suggested that a personal web page (neither a wiki nor a blog, but a privately maintained and organized collection of articles) might be the way you want to go. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 16:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir and I both think people who've viewed a WOTM video should be able to find a refutation of that video. Also people who want to know what is in a WOTM video without watching it should be able to find the information. It's not up to you what we do on our own website. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 15:02, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:I'm not telling you what to do on your own website (why are you continuing to discuss it on this website, anyway? Do you or Feredir not have e-mail?), we crossposted because you write your replies over multiple posts instead of making use of the "show preview" button. My reply was aimed at your claims that the WotM refutations cater to "less intellectual" people, because if you're doing this with the idea that you're an intellectual and that you're writing for the benefit of people of lesser intelligence, you're just turning atheism into a form of "white man's burden" and failing at the very goal you're trying to achieve by doing all these refutations in the first place. Your work is getting bumped from RationalWiki and here because you refuse to see that. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 17:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

The articles I transfered to Atheism Wiki [http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&cp=16&gs_id=1q&xhr=t&q=the+way+of+the+master&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=the+way+of+the+m&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=afba954cc67558fd&biw=1180&bih=541 now rank high on Google] and that includes new material I've written there. Things have ended well, there's no longer any problem, it's up to the site owners how much [[:Category:Ray Comfort|Ray Comfort]] related material to keep here, I've copied it all. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:15, 5 December 2011 (CST)

== Deletions and restorations ==
I understand (from the thread above) that there have been problems with the Ray Comfort related articles lately, but [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=Proxima+Centauri&page= why have you deleted articles] that had extensive content ''before'' you even edited them? For example, you deleted (and I just restored) [[The Beauty of a Broken Spirit—Atheism (Way of the Master)]], [[The Firefighter (Way of the Master)]], and even [[Template:Wayofthemaster]], all of which were originally created and heavily edited by the founders of this wiki (and other administrators). In other words, those articles were not "yours to delete". I've restored all of them to their respective states before you and/or [[User:Feredir28|Feredir28]] first edited them (since I assume your intention was to remove your and his contributions, and you just got a bit sloppy doing that). You also deleted [[The Satanic Influence (Way of the Master)]], which neither of you ever edited in the first place. A quick glance through the deleted content didn't reveal anything inappropriate, so I've restored that article, too. I didn't restore any articles you or Feredir28 created. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 05:21, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:OK [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 08:13, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::Hi Dcljr, please check the bottom of the talk page on Ray Comfort. I requested that the reorganization happen, my preference is to cut down on / relocate the articles specifically addressing individual apologists' bodies of work. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:08, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::: Hmm. I [[Talk:Ray Comfort|still don't see]] where you suggested that all the articles be deleted, only particular contributions to them. Feel free to re-delete the articles, if you feel that's best. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 14:00, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::: I think you, Kazim and the other senior administrators should decide among yourselves what to do. I'm tired of all this. I'm tired of Jdog regularly making us angrier than we were before we read his comments. I'm tired of weeks of hard work followed by being told off by Kazim, Jdog and others. I'm tired of senior administrators leaving the wiki alone for long periods without saying what they want, then blaming Feredir and me when things are not their liking. That's the one and only time so far that I can remember when I've agreed with Jdog over anything important.

:::: I've copied what matters to Feredir and me to [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki] and it is up to you what you do here. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 15:18, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::: I haven't had time to consider this but my first suggestion is to leave things as [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] left it. I suspect Kazim and I were wrong to get everything deleted, the next phase in this argument could easily be that the authors of deleted material, (not by Feredir and me) will complain. Then the dispute could escalate with Jdog making criticisms all round. At least let's leave things as they are for a week or so to give cooling off time and to give the senior administrators time to think and discuss the issue. As I said I'm not keen to be involved further. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 16:35, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::::: (Apologies for continuing this on your talk page, but...) FWIW, I don't consider myself a "senior administrator". The only valid distinction, IMO, is between [[Special:Listusers/sysop|regular admins and bureaucrats]]. I don't know who [[User:EnthusOcn|EnthusOcn]] is, but the other 3 bureaucrats are the ones who founded the wiki in the first place, so they should decide what they want to do with it. I would point out, however, that four articles have been "featured" on the [[Main Page]] for years now, all point-by-point refutations of individual apologetical works. Are we not doing that anymore? This should be discussed on-wiki somewhere; I suggest [[Iron Chariots Wiki talk:Editing guidelines#What are we doing here?]], since this obviously has implications for what we want to say on that project page. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 17:54, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::::: More discussion was added at the Editing Guidelines talk page. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:02, 23 November 2011 (CST)

User talk:Proxima Centauri

2011-12-08T04:23:49Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Praise and Glory to the FSM! */

I’m lonely here as nobody has spoken to me yet. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:03, 24 July 2009 (CDT)
:Awww. There, there. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:46, 31 July 2009 (CDT)
::<irony>Thanks for being so understanding. </irony> [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:04, 1 August 2009 (CDT)
:Glad to see there are some folks who actually use the chat functions on these wiki pages. I mostly just edit, but I guess I'll have to check them. Off hand, you wouldn't happen to know if there's any way to encode formal logic on this page, would you? The standard wiki form doesn't work. - JStein (8:49, 9/13/2011)

I see you started a WOTM program review. *Big hugs* I have made multiple requests for help on RW, YouTube, and [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trolling_With_Logic TWL]. You are the first person to give a helping hand. Thanks mate, I really appreciate it. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 15:25, 6 October 2011 (CDT)

==Multiverse==
Any chance that we could not use the '''Multiverse''' "theory" here? It's currently an untestable claim that has no evidence to support it, not a scientific theory. I certainly agree that it's ''possible'', but until we have a way of detecting other universes, it's an irrational claim and not suitable for use in counter-apologetics. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 09:36, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

:[http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Kalam&curid=2213&diff=18138&oldid=18111&rcid=17057 I think the mustiverse theory prevents God being proved]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 11:10, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

::It does no such thing. The multiverse ''concept'' (please provide scientific evidence for the claim or stop calling it a theory) simply moves the problem up one level; a theist just has to claim that "God caused the multiverse to exist" and you're back where you started, plus you've added another unprovable claim to the mix. If anything, the concept of parallel universes could potentially be used to explain the conflicts between omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 20:54, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

I’ve taken it out as the issue is not worth so much trouble and I risk getting behind with refuting [[Ray Comfort]]. In my opinion the [[wikipedia:Multiverse|Muliverse]] is valid against [[Kalam]] because Kalam explicitly states, “Everything that '''starts to exist''' needs a cause and the Multiverse didn’t necessarily , '''start to exist'''. I agree the Multiverse does not work against general first cause arguments. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:35, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

==Ray Comfort==
Ray Comfort is, as they say on the Non-Prophets, an ASSHAT (anyone playing the Non-Prophets drinking game?). Pretend i said all this in an Australian pirate accent so it counts as six drinks if you are. Anyway, lets all unite against creationist asshats. I'm just doing some minor editing, correcting some spelling mistakes, maybe adding a sentence or two when needed. Does anyone else visit this site, or are the fundie asshats trying to get rid of us?
SOMEONE TELL ME HOW TO USE THE CHAT, i just did this by clicking edit on your page, then inserted my username how everyone else's was. [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]] 0334, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

You can find out how active the site is by [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges Clicking this link], alternatively you can click Recent changes 3 lines below the picture of the chariot and horses near the top left hand side of the page. To talk a user you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the Userpage and to talk about an article you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the article.

This is an atheist website and Christians can’t stop us being ungodly here, see [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Neutral point of view]]. [[User:Feredir28|Feredir28]] has been working very hard helping refute [[Ray Comfort]] as have others. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:04, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

Okay, thanks. You're on here too much, all the edits I see are from me, you, and two other people. Kazim and Sans Deity need to start "plugging" this site on the Non-Prophets and the Atheist Experience more, we need more people! [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

== Spam/vandalism ==

Lol, when I tried saving one of those marked as spam, I was told you had just deleted it. <impolite>Don't you have a life either?</impolite>

Is there no way we can upgrade the MediaWiki software? The latest version should make user-management, and thus spam-prevention, within easier reach. Sure, it will add some bureaucracy to new user creation, but won't it be worth it?

:You could try asking, [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]], he's the site owner. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:24, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

::I see he's probably too busy. Especially as an upgrade, apparently ANY upgrade beyond the current version, would require an upgrade of PHP. Which looks like it would involve the ISP...
::Something tells me that the most effective solution would be to find a new ISP, export and import, and then transfer the domain name to the new site. All of course without stealing the domain from Sans Deity.
::Isn't this interesting? I didn't even know there was a forum. How much more work would that involve?
::I can feel myself giving up here. --[[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 05:53, 9 October 2011 (CDT)
Bother... I think I'll leave you to it. I'll stick to fixing typos... --[[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 02:31, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

::: He's going to get to it after wedding season. Be patient please, no coup is required. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:05, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

I think the computer must have delayed before you found out I'd deleted that stuff. While I'm checking regularly I don't need delete templates but if ever I can't check for any reason delete templates will be very useful. Any admin who gets to delete just needs to go to [[:Category:Pages for deletion]] and find a bunch of articles all together ready to delete. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 10:12, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

== Clean up ==

I rolled back some changes and I don't have time to monitor and fix everything. I've been getting complaints about some regulars adding sloppy speculation and changing the site from informative to a personal, sloppy, speculative bitch-slapping of apologists. Dig through your changes....and wherever you've added unfounded accusations, speculations or snide comments - remove them. I'm going to check back after the wedding and if there aren't improvements, I'll be locking the site down, upgrading it and changing policies and permissions. This isn't a place to talk shit about apologists or post things that might cause unnecessary problems. You CANNOT simply toss around accusations about financial motivations - that leads to legal problems, and I'd prefer if people didn't post sloppy arguments. [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 01:22, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

:First, my thanks to Proxima about AtheistWiki, but before we go there mate, we have work to do. I will go through all my material on Ray Comfort - that includes the programs, books, and main page. Nobody here meant harm, but we will not be divide over this issue and continue to work together. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:03, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

I haven’t got time to go through your edits and I’m going to bed soon, I’ve had an infection recently. On this wiki are writers who’ve done really good hard hitting stuff about the [[Problem of evil]] and other difficult topics. '''Please write nothing here that could offend those writers or which those writers may not like.''' You can write snark and offensive stuff at RationalWiki or [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki], '''just don’t break any libel laws'''. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 13:42, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
*:I appreciate the fixes. Please take a moment to check out the newly added "types of pages" section under [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Editing guidelines]] for a little more guidance in how pages ought to look. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 18:16, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

== Atheist groups in ... ==

I suggest merging all those '''[[Special:Deadendpages|Atheist groups in some-country-or-state]]''' pages into one '''List of atheist groups''' page, organised, naturally, by continent, country and state. The current state of myriad miniature "articles" seems... silly.

May I? [[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 07:02, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

Please ask [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] or [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]], both know more about this wiki than I do. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 09:36, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

:Yes please. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:04, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

==Praise and Glory to the FSM!==
What do you think of the edit I did on the page about the FSM? We need a [[War on Christmas]] page, but I'm going to sleep, its 3 Am(pacific time)[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I like it but what the established administrators like counts for more here than what I like. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 06:17, 7 November 2011 (CST)

PLEASE CHECK MY NEW PAGE ON RICK PERRY. It needs more info, linked to my sources in the page, sorry i dont have time to look at my sources more and post more info, it is DAMNED important this gets up and running, as it might prevent another crazy religious president like Bush. One was enough. [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I have no problem about the article on [[Rick Perry]] but please check with [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] as he is the site owner. I suggest writing mainly material demonstrating that Perry’s position on religion is irrational as this wiki is primarily about countering irrational religion. I suggest checking the sources in the RationalWiki article for information but here you should write respectfully. Googling [http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=rick%20perry%2Breligious%20nut&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f9736ba80af0173&biw=1198&bih=541&pf=p&pdl=3000 rick perry+religious nut] will get you information that will sometimes need rewriting respectfully. Googling [http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=rick+perry%2Breligious%2Birrational&pbx=1&oq=rick+perry%2Breligious%2Birrational&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=44304l47432l0l50604l11l11l0l0l0l0l178l1412l3.8l11l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f9736ba80af0173&biw=1198&bih=541 rick perry+religious+irrational] will get information that won’t need rewording respectfully so often. I also suggest that you look for websites where political material is expected.

I’m from the UK and I don’t fully understand American politics, I personally fear Mitt Romney because he stands the biggest chance of defeating Obama as far as I know. [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Mitt_Romney Mitt Romney] flip flops so much nobody knows what he would do as president. RationalWiki accepts articles about all relevant issues over the [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/2012_U.S._Presidential_Election 2012 U.S. Presidential Election] and has articles about most of the [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/2012_U.S._Presidential_Election#Republican_Party possible Republican runners], you can register there and add to articles or write new ones but not all the editors are polite or well behaved. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

I'm from Canada (different time zones suck) and i dont think if i put the bit about the N.A.R. by itself it would really do anything......however, if it is linked to rick perry, then people will notice (hopefully....). i know sans deity is the site owner, i joined this site because i heard about it from some old episodes of the non prophets. My source is legitimate, as it is from national public radio, and it seems unbiased. i dunno, just put it up there because it seems to have some relevance to me.what's your personal opinion of those N.A.R. folks?
anyways, let me know if you need help deleting spam, i have some free time on my hands. Right now, i think this website is a damn good reference, dont you agree? [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I don't need help deleting spam as only administrators can delete. I don't know much about the N.A.R. Do you mean the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation New Apostolic Reformation]? I know no more about them than what's in the Wikipedia article. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

Yes, thats what i meant, the youtube video i linked is part of a series by that user that goes into detail about their beliefs (the npr article i posted,[http://www.npr.org/2011/08/24/139781021/the-evangelicals-engaged-in-spiritual-warfare Link] was great too, but less in detail and colorful, as well as being worth less laughs) , and how bat shit crazy they are. for the love of spaghetti, they think oprah is the freakin antichrist! they should cover that crap on the [[Non-Prophets]], it would get so many laughs! i mean, they are the new spanish inquisition without the torture and censorship (at the moment), and they are trying to gain popularity? thats like another hitler staging rock concerts![[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

So, whats religion like in the U.K.?[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

We have some street corner evangelists but most people in Britain are apathetic about religion or skeptical. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:07, 11 November 2011 (CST)

Just like here. I know two and only two christian people under 20. ahhh religion, die already.
Been lotsa spam lately huh?
[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I fear the spam will continue till one of the top administrators gets as [[Wikipedia:CAPTCHA|CAPTCHA]]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:11, 13 November 2011 (CST)

Meh, it just shows how morally "superior" theists are.[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]
How's my favorite heathen doing? I've been enjoying the new video game that just came out, Call of Duty, Modern Warfare 3. Do anything interesting? [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

Well, what have I been doing? [http://atheism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&limit=100 I’ve written any amount of stuff about Ray Comfort and other topics at Atheism Wiki]. I watched <s>mindless</s> inspiring video material by Ray Comfort so I could comment effectively.

I went for walks in local parks so I would get general exercise and wouldn’t just exercise my typing fingers. I read ordinary books and newspapers in cafes and libraries etc so I would spend some time away from my flat and my computer. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:01, 5 December 2011 (CST)

Sounds fun, I'm reading stuff on the website of the FSM, the hate mail is quite interesting. You play any video games (I need to further the stereotype of all atheists being nerds!!)?? I've been watching the latest American election stuffs, and i must say, the Republicans are really, really, really, really, really, realllllyyyy stupid this year. [[Rick Perry]], Michele Bachman, and Sarah Palin especially. Oh and another guy, Mitt Romney, put out an Obama smear ad, where he quoted Obama quoting someone else.... I swear, they are TRYING to lose. [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

RAtionalWiki has a '''[http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Category:2012_US_Presidential_Election Whole Category]''' with plenty or articles making fun of them all. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:09, 5 December 2011 (CST)

Are you on rational wiki? If so, can you add my bit about the New Apostolic Reformation from my [[Rick Perry]] page to theirs? [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

[http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rick_Perry#New_Apostolic_Reformation Done]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:03, 6 December 2011 (CST)

thanks for that, i want to spread the info about these <s>excellent, convincing, logical and well-read</s> theocratic people asap, as it could influence the upcoming election, and i dont want another bush....every vote counts. did you link my source? i linked to an article from national public radio as a source, which also happened to be the source of the video we both linked. have a good one =) [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I also started [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Theocracy_Watch Theocracy Watch] but I don't want to do too much because I'm from the UK and I don't understand American politics well enough. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 21:09, 6 December 2011 (CST)

American politics are simple. The democrats are honest and intelligent-ish (or at least as close as you can get to it, they are politicians you know....) and the republicans are <s> dumbshit, retarded, ignorant theocratic</s> rich people who like guns, hate taxes, and are ALWAYS opposed to abortion, contraception, atheism, church-state separation, and the <s> scientifically tried-and-true</s> theory of evolution. Republicans SOMEHOW get votes from <s>smart</s> southern voters...
[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

It looks like you';d appreciate '''[http://liberapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Liberapedia]'''. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:15, 7 December 2011 (CST)

I just think the "religious right" (the fundie portion of the republicans) needs to die. Soon.[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername]]

== Proposal for Ray Comfort articles ==

Hi Proxima,

I'd like to make a modest proposal regarding the large amount of work you've done on all of Ray Comfort's works. I'm still having the feeling that you're seeing Iron Chariots as a private sandbox to go after Comfort's entire body of work, and the articles you're generating are coming in too fast for anybody to review them, or perhaps even read them. They don't seem to be strongly cohesive integrated with the rest of the site, the main focus of which is to be a resource for specific arguments with organized responses. However, here's my alternate suggestion.

A more focused website that is centered around your special interest in Ray would probably be a very useful and more appropriate resource. Call it whatever you want, make it as polemic and opinionated as you want. Make it the official "I Hate Ray Comfort" site if you like. Heck, "ihateraycomfort.com" is available, and I'm sure you could come up with other variations that suit your intentions. You seem like somebody who knows how to set up a website, but if not I'd be happy to recommend resources for getting started, and if necessary, help migrate those articles to HTML pages.

I'd be more than happy to have one main article about Ray Comfort which, in addition to providing short explanations and links to his common arguments, also links to your site. You could include a paragraph-long blurb in the links section saying how thorough and extensive it is, and you would have full creative control over it without my (I'm sure) annoying meddling.

What do you say? --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 08:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Plus, you'd avoid my criticism when I actually do read one or two of the RC articles here. Thanks for removing the gay stereotyping from the "convert your family!" WotM episode review, though. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 10:32, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir did most of the work, I don't want to remove what he wrote. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 12:03, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:Maybe you could start something jointly? --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 12:26, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Thank you for inviting me to this discussion. My thoughts on Kazim's idea are mixed. When I first arrived on IronChariots, I was aware that it was used to confront specific theistic arguments, but when I saw that IC had only 4 review/critiques of Ray's programs and barely a paragraph for one of his books, I thought perhaps there was a little more to IC. At the time, I thought the least I could do was muster some time and man-power to expand IC operations. Now, while I am sure my time and hard work is much appreciated, the thought of having a website is intriguing but an unsure feeling keeps creeping around me.

Proxima, would it be more suiting if we moved all our work (both yours and mine) to Atheism.wiki or would an independent website created by the both of us be more suiting? If the conclusion would be a website, the next difficult part is to make something "uniqueness" I guess. Several rationalist websites confront Ray Comfort (such as forums like WeAreSMRT and the Rational Response Squad) but none of them give a "walk through" of Ray's materials, pointing out and documenting every flaw in Ray's material. For my own two cents: if I had my own website confronting creationists, it would not focus entirely on Ray Comfort. But before I go any further into that, we must first decide if a website would be the best option, and if it would be the case, I would do what I can to contribute. If not, we will work things out. What say you? [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:22, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:It seems that Proxima has already moved a lot of the material I always wished to preserve the most to Atheism.wikia, for which I am most grateful (and soon I will be a user to contribute more). The question of the website still remains open, where Proxima and I (and possibly more) can both decide how to format whatever as we see fit. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:35, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Now that Wolf's spoken up, I feel that there's a misinterpretation of "refuting specific theistic arguments". Ray doesn't make new theistic arguments in each of his works, he simply repeats the same arguments over and over (sometimes with minor variations). Once you've made pages for argument from design, personal revelation, and fear of hell, then made appropriate redirects to them (banana argument to argument from design, for example), you've got his entire body of work almost completely refuted. Having a page about him where it lists the specific arguments he makes and links to pages about those arguments is a good thing. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

For several years [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki] has stagnated because I thought working to build up this site and RationalWiki would help the cause more. Recently I decided working more on Atheism Wiki is worthwhile because this wiki caters for intellectuals and RationalWiki is becoming steadily more intellectual. Nobody is catering for less intellectual types like high school students with religious doubts.

This is your website, it’s your choice whether you keep the Way of the Master Series or not. I’m sorry that you want to delete it because Google ranks it very high on the first page. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:08, 15 November 2011 (CST)

It’s up to you, Feredir if you want to do your own blog, I’m more experienced with wikis but learning how to do a blog could be interesting. I plan to work hard on refuting Ray Comfort on Atheism Wiki for 3 reasons.
#I already know how to work with wikis.
#Transferring work from one wiki to another is quick and relatively little needs doing to refit the material.
#On a wiki there is always the chance other people with bad experience of Ray Comfort will join the wiki and help us. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:17, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:I agree with you Proxima regarding working on a wiki. I too would prefer to work on a wiki since I already know how to do it. I already have my own blog, but I prefer working on wikis like RationalWiki, and info travels faster I think that way since anyone can take the time to contribute and spread the word. I like the sense of teamwork, which is why I helped create [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trolling_With_Logic TWL] [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 14:30, 15 November 2011 (CST)

An unsure feeling keeps creeping around me too, I’m sure together we can make material on Atheism Wiki presentable, how long will it take before Google picks it up?

I agree we should deal with other fundamentalists as well as Ray Comfort. Feredir lives relatively near to Ray Comfort and has first-hand experience of his influence. So I thought, “OK, let’s spend six months or so refuting Ray Comfort, when we’ve dealt with Ray and Kirk exhaustively we can consider doing something else." My 2 cents are that the first priority should be to get [[The Way of the Master]] complete because red links in the template look bad. Once that’s completed, we can start work debunking other fundamentalists. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:What term are you googling to see ICW on the first page? The only one I saw when I just tried a few was "Ray Comfort", at the bottom. I think you underestimate people who have religious doubts and do them a disservice by thinking of them as "less intellectual", which would help explain why your approach to refuting RC's work is so odd. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

::I've already pointed out several times that Google collects data on individual users and tailors their results to what it thinks you want to see. Just because you see it first in the results doesn't mean that anyone else does. I don't even see it on the first page. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 16:49, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Another thing I want to check on is, did you create the atheism wikia page? If not, have you checked with the creators in advance to see if it fits their style guidelines? I'd hate for you to waste a bunch of additional work. That's one reason why I suggested that a personal web page (neither a wiki nor a blog, but a privately maintained and organized collection of articles) might be the way you want to go. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 16:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir and I both think people who've viewed a WOTM video should be able to find a refutation of that video. Also people who want to know what is in a WOTM video without watching it should be able to find the information. It's not up to you what we do on our own website. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 15:02, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:I'm not telling you what to do on your own website (why are you continuing to discuss it on this website, anyway? Do you or Feredir not have e-mail?), we crossposted because you write your replies over multiple posts instead of making use of the "show preview" button. My reply was aimed at your claims that the WotM refutations cater to "less intellectual" people, because if you're doing this with the idea that you're an intellectual and that you're writing for the benefit of people of lesser intelligence, you're just turning atheism into a form of "white man's burden" and failing at the very goal you're trying to achieve by doing all these refutations in the first place. Your work is getting bumped from RationalWiki and here because you refuse to see that. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 17:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

The articles I transfered to Atheism Wiki [http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&cp=16&gs_id=1q&xhr=t&q=the+way+of+the+master&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=the+way+of+the+m&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=afba954cc67558fd&biw=1180&bih=541 now rank high on Google] and that includes new material I've written there. Things have ended well, there's no longer any problem, it's up to the site owners how much [[:Category:Ray Comfort|Ray Comfort]] related material to keep here, I've copied it all. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:15, 5 December 2011 (CST)

== Deletions and restorations ==
I understand (from the thread above) that there have been problems with the Ray Comfort related articles lately, but [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=Proxima+Centauri&page= why have you deleted articles] that had extensive content ''before'' you even edited them? For example, you deleted (and I just restored) [[The Beauty of a Broken Spirit—Atheism (Way of the Master)]], [[The Firefighter (Way of the Master)]], and even [[Template:Wayofthemaster]], all of which were originally created and heavily edited by the founders of this wiki (and other administrators). In other words, those articles were not "yours to delete". I've restored all of them to their respective states before you and/or [[User:Feredir28|Feredir28]] first edited them (since I assume your intention was to remove your and his contributions, and you just got a bit sloppy doing that). You also deleted [[The Satanic Influence (Way of the Master)]], which neither of you ever edited in the first place. A quick glance through the deleted content didn't reveal anything inappropriate, so I've restored that article, too. I didn't restore any articles you or Feredir28 created. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 05:21, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:OK [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 08:13, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::Hi Dcljr, please check the bottom of the talk page on Ray Comfort. I requested that the reorganization happen, my preference is to cut down on / relocate the articles specifically addressing individual apologists' bodies of work. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:08, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::: Hmm. I [[Talk:Ray Comfort|still don't see]] where you suggested that all the articles be deleted, only particular contributions to them. Feel free to re-delete the articles, if you feel that's best. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 14:00, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::: I think you, Kazim and the other senior administrators should decide among yourselves what to do. I'm tired of all this. I'm tired of Jdog regularly making us angrier than we were before we read his comments. I'm tired of weeks of hard work followed by being told off by Kazim, Jdog and others. I'm tired of senior administrators leaving the wiki alone for long periods without saying what they want, then blaming Feredir and me when things are not their liking. That's the one and only time so far that I can remember when I've agreed with Jdog over anything important.

:::: I've copied what matters to Feredir and me to [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki] and it is up to you what you do here. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 15:18, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::: I haven't had time to consider this but my first suggestion is to leave things as [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] left it. I suspect Kazim and I were wrong to get everything deleted, the next phase in this argument could easily be that the authors of deleted material, (not by Feredir and me) will complain. Then the dispute could escalate with Jdog making criticisms all round. At least let's leave things as they are for a week or so to give cooling off time and to give the senior administrators time to think and discuss the issue. As I said I'm not keen to be involved further. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 16:35, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::::: (Apologies for continuing this on your talk page, but...) FWIW, I don't consider myself a "senior administrator". The only valid distinction, IMO, is between [[Special:Listusers/sysop|regular admins and bureaucrats]]. I don't know who [[User:EnthusOcn|EnthusOcn]] is, but the other 3 bureaucrats are the ones who founded the wiki in the first place, so they should decide what they want to do with it. I would point out, however, that four articles have been "featured" on the [[Main Page]] for years now, all point-by-point refutations of individual apologetical works. Are we not doing that anymore? This should be discussed on-wiki somewhere; I suggest [[Iron Chariots Wiki talk:Editing guidelines#What are we doing here?]], since this obviously has implications for what we want to say on that project page. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 17:54, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::::: More discussion was added at the Editing Guidelines talk page. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:02, 23 November 2011 (CST)

User talk:Proxima Centauri

2011-12-07T09:01:23Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Praise and Glory to the FSM! */

I’m lonely here as nobody has spoken to me yet. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:03, 24 July 2009 (CDT)
:Awww. There, there. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:46, 31 July 2009 (CDT)
::<irony>Thanks for being so understanding. </irony> [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:04, 1 August 2009 (CDT)
:Glad to see there are some folks who actually use the chat functions on these wiki pages. I mostly just edit, but I guess I'll have to check them. Off hand, you wouldn't happen to know if there's any way to encode formal logic on this page, would you? The standard wiki form doesn't work. - JStein (8:49, 9/13/2011)

I see you started a WOTM program review. *Big hugs* I have made multiple requests for help on RW, YouTube, and [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trolling_With_Logic TWL]. You are the first person to give a helping hand. Thanks mate, I really appreciate it. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 15:25, 6 October 2011 (CDT)

==Multiverse==
Any chance that we could not use the '''Multiverse''' "theory" here? It's currently an untestable claim that has no evidence to support it, not a scientific theory. I certainly agree that it's ''possible'', but until we have a way of detecting other universes, it's an irrational claim and not suitable for use in counter-apologetics. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 09:36, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

:[http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Kalam&curid=2213&diff=18138&oldid=18111&rcid=17057 I think the mustiverse theory prevents God being proved]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 11:10, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

::It does no such thing. The multiverse ''concept'' (please provide scientific evidence for the claim or stop calling it a theory) simply moves the problem up one level; a theist just has to claim that "God caused the multiverse to exist" and you're back where you started, plus you've added another unprovable claim to the mix. If anything, the concept of parallel universes could potentially be used to explain the conflicts between omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 20:54, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

I’ve taken it out as the issue is not worth so much trouble and I risk getting behind with refuting [[Ray Comfort]]. In my opinion the [[wikipedia:Multiverse|Muliverse]] is valid against [[Kalam]] because Kalam explicitly states, “Everything that '''starts to exist''' needs a cause and the Multiverse didn’t necessarily , '''start to exist'''. I agree the Multiverse does not work against general first cause arguments. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:35, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

==Ray Comfort==
Ray Comfort is, as they say on the Non-Prophets, an ASSHAT (anyone playing the Non-Prophets drinking game?). Pretend i said all this in an Australian pirate accent so it counts as six drinks if you are. Anyway, lets all unite against creationist asshats. I'm just doing some minor editing, correcting some spelling mistakes, maybe adding a sentence or two when needed. Does anyone else visit this site, or are the fundie asshats trying to get rid of us?
SOMEONE TELL ME HOW TO USE THE CHAT, i just did this by clicking edit on your page, then inserted my username how everyone else's was. [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]] 0334, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

You can find out how active the site is by [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges Clicking this link], alternatively you can click Recent changes 3 lines below the picture of the chariot and horses near the top left hand side of the page. To talk a user you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the Userpage and to talk about an article you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the article.

This is an atheist website and Christians can’t stop us being ungodly here, see [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Neutral point of view]]. [[User:Feredir28|Feredir28]] has been working very hard helping refute [[Ray Comfort]] as have others. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:04, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

Okay, thanks. You're on here too much, all the edits I see are from me, you, and two other people. Kazim and Sans Deity need to start "plugging" this site on the Non-Prophets and the Atheist Experience more, we need more people! [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

== Spam/vandalism ==

Lol, when I tried saving one of those marked as spam, I was told you had just deleted it. <impolite>Don't you have a life either?</impolite>

Is there no way we can upgrade the MediaWiki software? The latest version should make user-management, and thus spam-prevention, within easier reach. Sure, it will add some bureaucracy to new user creation, but won't it be worth it?

:You could try asking, [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]], he's the site owner. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:24, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

::I see he's probably too busy. Especially as an upgrade, apparently ANY upgrade beyond the current version, would require an upgrade of PHP. Which looks like it would involve the ISP...
::Something tells me that the most effective solution would be to find a new ISP, export and import, and then transfer the domain name to the new site. All of course without stealing the domain from Sans Deity.
::Isn't this interesting? I didn't even know there was a forum. How much more work would that involve?
::I can feel myself giving up here. --[[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 05:53, 9 October 2011 (CDT)
Bother... I think I'll leave you to it. I'll stick to fixing typos... --[[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 02:31, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

::: He's going to get to it after wedding season. Be patient please, no coup is required. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:05, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

I think the computer must have delayed before you found out I'd deleted that stuff. While I'm checking regularly I don't need delete templates but if ever I can't check for any reason delete templates will be very useful. Any admin who gets to delete just needs to go to [[:Category:Pages for deletion]] and find a bunch of articles all together ready to delete. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 10:12, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

== Clean up ==

I rolled back some changes and I don't have time to monitor and fix everything. I've been getting complaints about some regulars adding sloppy speculation and changing the site from informative to a personal, sloppy, speculative bitch-slapping of apologists. Dig through your changes....and wherever you've added unfounded accusations, speculations or snide comments - remove them. I'm going to check back after the wedding and if there aren't improvements, I'll be locking the site down, upgrading it and changing policies and permissions. This isn't a place to talk shit about apologists or post things that might cause unnecessary problems. You CANNOT simply toss around accusations about financial motivations - that leads to legal problems, and I'd prefer if people didn't post sloppy arguments. [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 01:22, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

:First, my thanks to Proxima about AtheistWiki, but before we go there mate, we have work to do. I will go through all my material on Ray Comfort - that includes the programs, books, and main page. Nobody here meant harm, but we will not be divide over this issue and continue to work together. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:03, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

I haven’t got time to go through your edits and I’m going to bed soon, I’ve had an infection recently. On this wiki are writers who’ve done really good hard hitting stuff about the [[Problem of evil]] and other difficult topics. '''Please write nothing here that could offend those writers or which those writers may not like.''' You can write snark and offensive stuff at RationalWiki or [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki], '''just don’t break any libel laws'''. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 13:42, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
*:I appreciate the fixes. Please take a moment to check out the newly added "types of pages" section under [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Editing guidelines]] for a little more guidance in how pages ought to look. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 18:16, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

== Atheist groups in ... ==

I suggest merging all those '''[[Special:Deadendpages|Atheist groups in some-country-or-state]]''' pages into one '''List of atheist groups''' page, organised, naturally, by continent, country and state. The current state of myriad miniature "articles" seems... silly.

May I? [[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 07:02, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

Please ask [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] or [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]], both know more about this wiki than I do. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 09:36, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

:Yes please. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:04, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

==Praise and Glory to the FSM!==
What do you think of the edit I did on the page about the FSM? We need a [[War on Christmas]] page, but I'm going to sleep, its 3 Am(pacific time)[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I like it but what the established administrators like counts for more here than what I like. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 06:17, 7 November 2011 (CST)

PLEASE CHECK MY NEW PAGE ON RICK PERRY. It needs more info, linked to my sources in the page, sorry i dont have time to look at my sources more and post more info, it is DAMNED important this gets up and running, as it might prevent another crazy religious president like Bush. One was enough. [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I have no problem about the article on [[Rick Perry]] but please check with [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] as he is the site owner. I suggest writing mainly material demonstrating that Perry’s position on religion is irrational as this wiki is primarily about countering irrational religion. I suggest checking the sources in the RationalWiki article for information but here you should write respectfully. Googling [http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=rick%20perry%2Breligious%20nut&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f9736ba80af0173&biw=1198&bih=541&pf=p&pdl=3000 rick perry+religious nut] will get you information that will sometimes need rewriting respectfully. Googling [http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=rick+perry%2Breligious%2Birrational&pbx=1&oq=rick+perry%2Breligious%2Birrational&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=44304l47432l0l50604l11l11l0l0l0l0l178l1412l3.8l11l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f9736ba80af0173&biw=1198&bih=541 rick perry+religious+irrational] will get information that won’t need rewording respectfully so often. I also suggest that you look for websites where political material is expected.

I’m from the UK and I don’t fully understand American politics, I personally fear Mitt Romney because he stands the biggest chance of defeating Obama as far as I know. [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Mitt_Romney Mitt Romney] flip flops so much nobody knows what he would do as president. RationalWiki accepts articles about all relevant issues over the [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/2012_U.S._Presidential_Election 2012 U.S. Presidential Election] and has articles about most of the [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/2012_U.S._Presidential_Election#Republican_Party possible Republican runners], you can register there and add to articles or write new ones but not all the editors are polite or well behaved. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

I'm from Canada (different time zones suck) and i dont think if i put the bit about the N.A.R. by itself it would really do anything......however, if it is linked to rick perry, then people will notice (hopefully....). i know sans deity is the site owner, i joined this site because i heard about it from some old episodes of the non prophets. My source is legitimate, as it is from national public radio, and it seems unbiased. i dunno, just put it up there because it seems to have some relevance to me.what's your personal opinion of those N.A.R. folks?
anyways, let me know if you need help deleting spam, i have some free time on my hands. Right now, i think this website is a damn good reference, dont you agree? [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I don't need help deleting spam as only administrators can delete. I don't know much about the N.A.R. Do you mean the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation New Apostolic Reformation]? I know no more about them than what's in the Wikipedia article. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

Yes, thats what i meant, the youtube video i linked is part of a series by that user that goes into detail about their beliefs (the npr article i posted,[http://www.npr.org/2011/08/24/139781021/the-evangelicals-engaged-in-spiritual-warfare Link] was great too, but less in detail and colorful, as well as being worth less laughs) , and how bat shit crazy they are. for the love of spaghetti, they think oprah is the freakin antichrist! they should cover that crap on the [[Non-Prophets]], it would get so many laughs! i mean, they are the new spanish inquisition without the torture and censorship (at the moment), and they are trying to gain popularity? thats like another hitler staging rock concerts![[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

So, whats religion like in the U.K.?[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

We have some street corner evangelists but most people in Britain are apathetic about religion or skeptical. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:07, 11 November 2011 (CST)

Just like here. I know two and only two christian people under 20. ahhh religion, die already.
Been lotsa spam lately huh?
[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I fear the spam will continue till one of the top administrators gets as [[Wikipedia:CAPTCHA|CAPTCHA]]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:11, 13 November 2011 (CST)

Meh, it just shows how morally "superior" theists are.[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]
How's my favorite heathen doing? I've been enjoying the new video game that just came out, Call of Duty, Modern Warfare 3. Do anything interesting? [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

Well, what have I been doing? [http://atheism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&limit=100 I’ve written any amount of stuff about Ray Comfort and other topics at Atheism Wiki]. I watched <s>mindless</s> inspiring video material by Ray Comfort so I could comment effectively.

I went for walks in local parks so I would get general exercise and wouldn’t just exercise my typing fingers. I read ordinary books and newspapers in cafes and libraries etc so I would spend some time away from my flat and my computer. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:01, 5 December 2011 (CST)

Sounds fun, I'm reading stuff on the website of the FSM, the hate mail is quite interesting. You play any video games (I need to further the stereotype of all atheists being nerds!!)?? I've been watching the latest American election stuffs, and i must say, the Republicans are really, really, really, really, really, realllllyyyy stupid this year. [[Rick Perry]], Michele Bachman, and Sarah Palin especially. Oh and another guy, Mitt Romney, put out an Obama smear ad, where he quoted Obama quoting someone else.... I swear, they are TRYING to lose. [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

RAtionalWiki has a '''[http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Category:2012_US_Presidential_Election Whole Category]''' with plenty or articles making fun of them all. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:09, 5 December 2011 (CST)

Are you on rational wiki? If so, can you add my bit about the New Apostolic Reformation from my [[Rick Perry]] page to theirs? [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

[http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rick_Perry#New_Apostolic_Reformation Done]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:03, 6 December 2011 (CST)

thanks for that, i want to spread the info about these <s>excellent, convincing, logical and well-read</s> theocratic people asap, as it could influence the upcoming election, and i dont want another bush....every vote counts. did you link my source? i linked to an article from national public radio as a source, which also happened to be the source of the video we both linked. have a good one =) [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I also started [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Theocracy_Watch Theocracy Watch] but I don't want to do too much because I'm from the UK and I don't understand American politics well enough. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 21:09, 6 December 2011 (CST)

American politics are simple. The democrats are honest and intelligent-ish (or at least as close as you can get to it, they are politicians you know....) and the republicans are <s> dumbshit, retarded, ignorant theocratic</s> rich people who like guns, hate taxes, and are ALWAYS opposed to abortion, contraception, atheism, church-state separation, and the <s> scientifically tried-and-true</s> theory of evolution.Republicans SOMEHOW get votes from <s>smart</s> southern voters...
[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

== Proposal for Ray Comfort articles ==

Hi Proxima,

I'd like to make a modest proposal regarding the large amount of work you've done on all of Ray Comfort's works. I'm still having the feeling that you're seeing Iron Chariots as a private sandbox to go after Comfort's entire body of work, and the articles you're generating are coming in too fast for anybody to review them, or perhaps even read them. They don't seem to be strongly cohesive integrated with the rest of the site, the main focus of which is to be a resource for specific arguments with organized responses. However, here's my alternate suggestion.

A more focused website that is centered around your special interest in Ray would probably be a very useful and more appropriate resource. Call it whatever you want, make it as polemic and opinionated as you want. Make it the official "I Hate Ray Comfort" site if you like. Heck, "ihateraycomfort.com" is available, and I'm sure you could come up with other variations that suit your intentions. You seem like somebody who knows how to set up a website, but if not I'd be happy to recommend resources for getting started, and if necessary, help migrate those articles to HTML pages.

I'd be more than happy to have one main article about Ray Comfort which, in addition to providing short explanations and links to his common arguments, also links to your site. You could include a paragraph-long blurb in the links section saying how thorough and extensive it is, and you would have full creative control over it without my (I'm sure) annoying meddling.

What do you say? --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 08:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Plus, you'd avoid my criticism when I actually do read one or two of the RC articles here. Thanks for removing the gay stereotyping from the "convert your family!" WotM episode review, though. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 10:32, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir did most of the work, I don't want to remove what he wrote. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 12:03, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:Maybe you could start something jointly? --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 12:26, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Thank you for inviting me to this discussion. My thoughts on Kazim's idea are mixed. When I first arrived on IronChariots, I was aware that it was used to confront specific theistic arguments, but when I saw that IC had only 4 review/critiques of Ray's programs and barely a paragraph for one of his books, I thought perhaps there was a little more to IC. At the time, I thought the least I could do was muster some time and man-power to expand IC operations. Now, while I am sure my time and hard work is much appreciated, the thought of having a website is intriguing but an unsure feeling keeps creeping around me.

Proxima, would it be more suiting if we moved all our work (both yours and mine) to Atheism.wiki or would an independent website created by the both of us be more suiting? If the conclusion would be a website, the next difficult part is to make something "uniqueness" I guess. Several rationalist websites confront Ray Comfort (such as forums like WeAreSMRT and the Rational Response Squad) but none of them give a "walk through" of Ray's materials, pointing out and documenting every flaw in Ray's material. For my own two cents: if I had my own website confronting creationists, it would not focus entirely on Ray Comfort. But before I go any further into that, we must first decide if a website would be the best option, and if it would be the case, I would do what I can to contribute. If not, we will work things out. What say you? [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:22, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:It seems that Proxima has already moved a lot of the material I always wished to preserve the most to Atheism.wikia, for which I am most grateful (and soon I will be a user to contribute more). The question of the website still remains open, where Proxima and I (and possibly more) can both decide how to format whatever as we see fit. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:35, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Now that Wolf's spoken up, I feel that there's a misinterpretation of "refuting specific theistic arguments". Ray doesn't make new theistic arguments in each of his works, he simply repeats the same arguments over and over (sometimes with minor variations). Once you've made pages for argument from design, personal revelation, and fear of hell, then made appropriate redirects to them (banana argument to argument from design, for example), you've got his entire body of work almost completely refuted. Having a page about him where it lists the specific arguments he makes and links to pages about those arguments is a good thing. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

For several years [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki] has stagnated because I thought working to build up this site and RationalWiki would help the cause more. Recently I decided working more on Atheism Wiki is worthwhile because this wiki caters for intellectuals and RationalWiki is becoming steadily more intellectual. Nobody is catering for less intellectual types like high school students with religious doubts.

This is your website, it’s your choice whether you keep the Way of the Master Series or not. I’m sorry that you want to delete it because Google ranks it very high on the first page. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:08, 15 November 2011 (CST)

It’s up to you, Feredir if you want to do your own blog, I’m more experienced with wikis but learning how to do a blog could be interesting. I plan to work hard on refuting Ray Comfort on Atheism Wiki for 3 reasons.
#I already know how to work with wikis.
#Transferring work from one wiki to another is quick and relatively little needs doing to refit the material.
#On a wiki there is always the chance other people with bad experience of Ray Comfort will join the wiki and help us. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:17, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:I agree with you Proxima regarding working on a wiki. I too would prefer to work on a wiki since I already know how to do it. I already have my own blog, but I prefer working on wikis like RationalWiki, and info travels faster I think that way since anyone can take the time to contribute and spread the word. I like the sense of teamwork, which is why I helped create [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trolling_With_Logic TWL] [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 14:30, 15 November 2011 (CST)

An unsure feeling keeps creeping around me too, I’m sure together we can make material on Atheism Wiki presentable, how long will it take before Google picks it up?

I agree we should deal with other fundamentalists as well as Ray Comfort. Feredir lives relatively near to Ray Comfort and has first-hand experience of his influence. So I thought, “OK, let’s spend six months or so refuting Ray Comfort, when we’ve dealt with Ray and Kirk exhaustively we can consider doing something else." My 2 cents are that the first priority should be to get [[The Way of the Master]] complete because red links in the template look bad. Once that’s completed, we can start work debunking other fundamentalists. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:What term are you googling to see ICW on the first page? The only one I saw when I just tried a few was "Ray Comfort", at the bottom. I think you underestimate people who have religious doubts and do them a disservice by thinking of them as "less intellectual", which would help explain why your approach to refuting RC's work is so odd. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

::I've already pointed out several times that Google collects data on individual users and tailors their results to what it thinks you want to see. Just because you see it first in the results doesn't mean that anyone else does. I don't even see it on the first page. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 16:49, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Another thing I want to check on is, did you create the atheism wikia page? If not, have you checked with the creators in advance to see if it fits their style guidelines? I'd hate for you to waste a bunch of additional work. That's one reason why I suggested that a personal web page (neither a wiki nor a blog, but a privately maintained and organized collection of articles) might be the way you want to go. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 16:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir and I both think people who've viewed a WOTM video should be able to find a refutation of that video. Also people who want to know what is in a WOTM video without watching it should be able to find the information. It's not up to you what we do on our own website. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 15:02, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:I'm not telling you what to do on your own website (why are you continuing to discuss it on this website, anyway? Do you or Feredir not have e-mail?), we crossposted because you write your replies over multiple posts instead of making use of the "show preview" button. My reply was aimed at your claims that the WotM refutations cater to "less intellectual" people, because if you're doing this with the idea that you're an intellectual and that you're writing for the benefit of people of lesser intelligence, you're just turning atheism into a form of "white man's burden" and failing at the very goal you're trying to achieve by doing all these refutations in the first place. Your work is getting bumped from RationalWiki and here because you refuse to see that. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 17:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

The articles I transfered to Atheism Wiki [http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&cp=16&gs_id=1q&xhr=t&q=the+way+of+the+master&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=the+way+of+the+m&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=afba954cc67558fd&biw=1180&bih=541 now rank high on Google] and that includes new material I've written there. Things have ended well, there's no longer any problem, it's up to the site owners how much [[:Category:Ray Comfort|Ray Comfort]] related material to keep here, I've copied it all. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:15, 5 December 2011 (CST)

== Deletions and restorations ==
I understand (from the thread above) that there have been problems with the Ray Comfort related articles lately, but [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=Proxima+Centauri&page= why have you deleted articles] that had extensive content ''before'' you even edited them? For example, you deleted (and I just restored) [[The Beauty of a Broken Spirit—Atheism (Way of the Master)]], [[The Firefighter (Way of the Master)]], and even [[Template:Wayofthemaster]], all of which were originally created and heavily edited by the founders of this wiki (and other administrators). In other words, those articles were not "yours to delete". I've restored all of them to their respective states before you and/or [[User:Feredir28|Feredir28]] first edited them (since I assume your intention was to remove your and his contributions, and you just got a bit sloppy doing that). You also deleted [[The Satanic Influence (Way of the Master)]], which neither of you ever edited in the first place. A quick glance through the deleted content didn't reveal anything inappropriate, so I've restored that article, too. I didn't restore any articles you or Feredir28 created. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 05:21, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:OK [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 08:13, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::Hi Dcljr, please check the bottom of the talk page on Ray Comfort. I requested that the reorganization happen, my preference is to cut down on / relocate the articles specifically addressing individual apologists' bodies of work. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:08, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::: Hmm. I [[Talk:Ray Comfort|still don't see]] where you suggested that all the articles be deleted, only particular contributions to them. Feel free to re-delete the articles, if you feel that's best. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 14:00, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::: I think you, Kazim and the other senior administrators should decide among yourselves what to do. I'm tired of all this. I'm tired of Jdog regularly making us angrier than we were before we read his comments. I'm tired of weeks of hard work followed by being told off by Kazim, Jdog and others. I'm tired of senior administrators leaving the wiki alone for long periods without saying what they want, then blaming Feredir and me when things are not their liking. That's the one and only time so far that I can remember when I've agreed with Jdog over anything important.

:::: I've copied what matters to Feredir and me to [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki] and it is up to you what you do here. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 15:18, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::: I haven't had time to consider this but my first suggestion is to leave things as [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] left it. I suspect Kazim and I were wrong to get everything deleted, the next phase in this argument could easily be that the authors of deleted material, (not by Feredir and me) will complain. Then the dispute could escalate with Jdog making criticisms all round. At least let's leave things as they are for a week or so to give cooling off time and to give the senior administrators time to think and discuss the issue. As I said I'm not keen to be involved further. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 16:35, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::::: (Apologies for continuing this on your talk page, but...) FWIW, I don't consider myself a "senior administrator". The only valid distinction, IMO, is between [[Special:Listusers/sysop|regular admins and bureaucrats]]. I don't know who [[User:EnthusOcn|EnthusOcn]] is, but the other 3 bureaucrats are the ones who founded the wiki in the first place, so they should decide what they want to do with it. I would point out, however, that four articles have been "featured" on the [[Main Page]] for years now, all point-by-point refutations of individual apologetical works. Are we not doing that anymore? This should be discussed on-wiki somewhere; I suggest [[Iron Chariots Wiki talk:Editing guidelines#What are we doing here?]], since this obviously has implications for what we want to say on that project page. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 17:54, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::::: More discussion was added at the Editing Guidelines talk page. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:02, 23 November 2011 (CST)

User talk:Proxima Centauri

2011-12-06T23:38:28Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Praise and Glory to the FSM! */

I’m lonely here as nobody has spoken to me yet. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:03, 24 July 2009 (CDT)
:Awww. There, there. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:46, 31 July 2009 (CDT)
::<irony>Thanks for being so understanding. </irony> [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:04, 1 August 2009 (CDT)
:Glad to see there are some folks who actually use the chat functions on these wiki pages. I mostly just edit, but I guess I'll have to check them. Off hand, you wouldn't happen to know if there's any way to encode formal logic on this page, would you? The standard wiki form doesn't work. - JStein (8:49, 9/13/2011)

I see you started a WOTM program review. *Big hugs* I have made multiple requests for help on RW, YouTube, and [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trolling_With_Logic TWL]. You are the first person to give a helping hand. Thanks mate, I really appreciate it. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 15:25, 6 October 2011 (CDT)

==Multiverse==
Any chance that we could not use the '''Multiverse''' "theory" here? It's currently an untestable claim that has no evidence to support it, not a scientific theory. I certainly agree that it's ''possible'', but until we have a way of detecting other universes, it's an irrational claim and not suitable for use in counter-apologetics. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 09:36, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

:[http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Kalam&curid=2213&diff=18138&oldid=18111&rcid=17057 I think the mustiverse theory prevents God being proved]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 11:10, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

::It does no such thing. The multiverse ''concept'' (please provide scientific evidence for the claim or stop calling it a theory) simply moves the problem up one level; a theist just has to claim that "God caused the multiverse to exist" and you're back where you started, plus you've added another unprovable claim to the mix. If anything, the concept of parallel universes could potentially be used to explain the conflicts between omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 20:54, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

I’ve taken it out as the issue is not worth so much trouble and I risk getting behind with refuting [[Ray Comfort]]. In my opinion the [[wikipedia:Multiverse|Muliverse]] is valid against [[Kalam]] because Kalam explicitly states, “Everything that '''starts to exist''' needs a cause and the Multiverse didn’t necessarily , '''start to exist'''. I agree the Multiverse does not work against general first cause arguments. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:35, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

==Ray Comfort==
Ray Comfort is, as they say on the Non-Prophets, an ASSHAT (anyone playing the Non-Prophets drinking game?). Pretend i said all this in an Australian pirate accent so it counts as six drinks if you are. Anyway, lets all unite against creationist asshats. I'm just doing some minor editing, correcting some spelling mistakes, maybe adding a sentence or two when needed. Does anyone else visit this site, or are the fundie asshats trying to get rid of us?
SOMEONE TELL ME HOW TO USE THE CHAT, i just did this by clicking edit on your page, then inserted my username how everyone else's was. [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]] 0334, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

You can find out how active the site is by [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges Clicking this link], alternatively you can click Recent changes 3 lines below the picture of the chariot and horses near the top left hand side of the page. To talk a user you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the Userpage and to talk about an article you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the article.

This is an atheist website and Christians can’t stop us being ungodly here, see [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Neutral point of view]]. [[User:Feredir28|Feredir28]] has been working very hard helping refute [[Ray Comfort]] as have others. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:04, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

Okay, thanks. You're on here too much, all the edits I see are from me, you, and two other people. Kazim and Sans Deity need to start "plugging" this site on the Non-Prophets and the Atheist Experience more, we need more people! [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

== Spam/vandalism ==

Lol, when I tried saving one of those marked as spam, I was told you had just deleted it. <impolite>Don't you have a life either?</impolite>

Is there no way we can upgrade the MediaWiki software? The latest version should make user-management, and thus spam-prevention, within easier reach. Sure, it will add some bureaucracy to new user creation, but won't it be worth it?

:You could try asking, [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]], he's the site owner. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:24, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

::I see he's probably too busy. Especially as an upgrade, apparently ANY upgrade beyond the current version, would require an upgrade of PHP. Which looks like it would involve the ISP...
::Something tells me that the most effective solution would be to find a new ISP, export and import, and then transfer the domain name to the new site. All of course without stealing the domain from Sans Deity.
::Isn't this interesting? I didn't even know there was a forum. How much more work would that involve?
::I can feel myself giving up here. --[[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 05:53, 9 October 2011 (CDT)
Bother... I think I'll leave you to it. I'll stick to fixing typos... --[[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 02:31, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

::: He's going to get to it after wedding season. Be patient please, no coup is required. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:05, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

I think the computer must have delayed before you found out I'd deleted that stuff. While I'm checking regularly I don't need delete templates but if ever I can't check for any reason delete templates will be very useful. Any admin who gets to delete just needs to go to [[:Category:Pages for deletion]] and find a bunch of articles all together ready to delete. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 10:12, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

== Clean up ==

I rolled back some changes and I don't have time to monitor and fix everything. I've been getting complaints about some regulars adding sloppy speculation and changing the site from informative to a personal, sloppy, speculative bitch-slapping of apologists. Dig through your changes....and wherever you've added unfounded accusations, speculations or snide comments - remove them. I'm going to check back after the wedding and if there aren't improvements, I'll be locking the site down, upgrading it and changing policies and permissions. This isn't a place to talk shit about apologists or post things that might cause unnecessary problems. You CANNOT simply toss around accusations about financial motivations - that leads to legal problems, and I'd prefer if people didn't post sloppy arguments. [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 01:22, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

:First, my thanks to Proxima about AtheistWiki, but before we go there mate, we have work to do. I will go through all my material on Ray Comfort - that includes the programs, books, and main page. Nobody here meant harm, but we will not be divide over this issue and continue to work together. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:03, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

I haven’t got time to go through your edits and I’m going to bed soon, I’ve had an infection recently. On this wiki are writers who’ve done really good hard hitting stuff about the [[Problem of evil]] and other difficult topics. '''Please write nothing here that could offend those writers or which those writers may not like.''' You can write snark and offensive stuff at RationalWiki or [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki], '''just don’t break any libel laws'''. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 13:42, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
*:I appreciate the fixes. Please take a moment to check out the newly added "types of pages" section under [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Editing guidelines]] for a little more guidance in how pages ought to look. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 18:16, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

== Atheist groups in ... ==

I suggest merging all those '''[[Special:Deadendpages|Atheist groups in some-country-or-state]]''' pages into one '''List of atheist groups''' page, organised, naturally, by continent, country and state. The current state of myriad miniature "articles" seems... silly.

May I? [[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 07:02, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

Please ask [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] or [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]], both know more about this wiki than I do. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 09:36, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

:Yes please. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:04, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

==Praise and Glory to the FSM!==
What do you think of the edit I did on the page about the FSM? We need a [[War on Christmas]] page, but I'm going to sleep, its 3 Am(pacific time)[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I like it but what the established administrators like counts for more here than what I like. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 06:17, 7 November 2011 (CST)

PLEASE CHECK MY NEW PAGE ON RICK PERRY. It needs more info, linked to my sources in the page, sorry i dont have time to look at my sources more and post more info, it is DAMNED important this gets up and running, as it might prevent another crazy religious president like Bush. One was enough. [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I have no problem about the article on [[Rick Perry]] but please check with [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] as he is the site owner. I suggest writing mainly material demonstrating that Perry’s position on religion is irrational as this wiki is primarily about countering irrational religion. I suggest checking the sources in the RationalWiki article for information but here you should write respectfully. Googling [http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=rick%20perry%2Breligious%20nut&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f9736ba80af0173&biw=1198&bih=541&pf=p&pdl=3000 rick perry+religious nut] will get you information that will sometimes need rewriting respectfully. Googling [http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=rick+perry%2Breligious%2Birrational&pbx=1&oq=rick+perry%2Breligious%2Birrational&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=44304l47432l0l50604l11l11l0l0l0l0l178l1412l3.8l11l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f9736ba80af0173&biw=1198&bih=541 rick perry+religious+irrational] will get information that won’t need rewording respectfully so often. I also suggest that you look for websites where political material is expected.

I’m from the UK and I don’t fully understand American politics, I personally fear Mitt Romney because he stands the biggest chance of defeating Obama as far as I know. [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Mitt_Romney Mitt Romney] flip flops so much nobody knows what he would do as president. RationalWiki accepts articles about all relevant issues over the [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/2012_U.S._Presidential_Election 2012 U.S. Presidential Election] and has articles about most of the [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/2012_U.S._Presidential_Election#Republican_Party possible Republican runners], you can register there and add to articles or write new ones but not all the editors are polite or well behaved. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

I'm from Canada (different time zones suck) and i dont think if i put the bit about the N.A.R. by itself it would really do anything......however, if it is linked to rick perry, then people will notice (hopefully....). i know sans deity is the site owner, i joined this site because i heard about it from some old episodes of the non prophets. My source is legitimate, as it is from national public radio, and it seems unbiased. i dunno, just put it up there because it seems to have some relevance to me.what's your personal opinion of those N.A.R. folks?
anyways, let me know if you need help deleting spam, i have some free time on my hands. Right now, i think this website is a damn good reference, dont you agree? [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I don't need help deleting spam as only administrators can delete. I don't know much about the N.A.R. Do you mean the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation New Apostolic Reformation]? I know no more about them than what's in the Wikipedia article. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

Yes, thats what i meant, the youtube video i linked is part of a series by that user that goes into detail about their beliefs (the npr article i posted,[http://www.npr.org/2011/08/24/139781021/the-evangelicals-engaged-in-spiritual-warfare Link] was great too, but less in detail and colorful, as well as being worth less laughs) , and how bat shit crazy they are. for the love of spaghetti, they think oprah is the freakin antichrist! they should cover that crap on the [[Non-Prophets]], it would get so many laughs! i mean, they are the new spanish inquisition without the torture and censorship (at the moment), and they are trying to gain popularity? thats like another hitler staging rock concerts![[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

So, whats religion like in the U.K.?[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

We have some street corner evangelists but most people in Britain are apathetic about religion or skeptical. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:07, 11 November 2011 (CST)

Just like here. I know two and only two christian people under 20. ahhh religion, die already.
Been lotsa spam lately huh?
[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I fear the spam will continue till one of the top administrators gets as [[Wikipedia:CAPTCHA|CAPTCHA]]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:11, 13 November 2011 (CST)

Meh, it just shows how morally "superior" theists are.[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]
How's my favorite heathen doing? I've been enjoying the new video game that just came out, Call of Duty, Modern Warfare 3. Do anything interesting? [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

Well, what have I been doing? [http://atheism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&limit=100 I’ve written any amount of stuff about Ray Comfort and other topics at Atheism Wiki]. I watched <s>mindless</s> inspiring video material by Ray Comfort so I could comment effectively.

I went for walks in local parks so I would get general exercise and wouldn’t just exercise my typing fingers. I read ordinary books and newspapers in cafes and libraries etc so I would spend some time away from my flat and my computer. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:01, 5 December 2011 (CST)

Sounds fun, I'm reading stuff on the website of the FSM, the hate mail is quite interesting. You play any video games (I need to further the stereotype of all atheists being nerds!!)?? I've been watching the latest American election stuffs, and i must say, the Republicans are really, really, really, really, really, realllllyyyy stupid this year. [[Rick Perry]], Michele Bachman, and Sarah Palin especially. Oh and another guy, Mitt Romney, put out an Obama smear ad, where he quoted Obama quoting someone else.... I swear, they are TRYING to lose. [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

RAtionalWiki has a '''[http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Category:2012_US_Presidential_Election Whole Category]''' with plenty or articles making fun of them all. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:09, 5 December 2011 (CST)

Are you on rational wiki? If so, can you add my bit about the New Apostolic Reformation from my [[Rick Perry]] page to theirs? [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

[http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Rick_Perry#New_Apostolic_Reformation Done]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:03, 6 December 2011 (CST)

thanks for that, i want to spread the info about these <s>excellent, convincing, logical and well-read</s> theocratic people asap, as it could influence the upcoming election, and i dont want another bush....every vote counts. did you link my source? i linked to an article from national public radio as a source, which also happened to be the source of the video we both linked. have a good one =) [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

== Proposal for Ray Comfort articles ==

Hi Proxima,

I'd like to make a modest proposal regarding the large amount of work you've done on all of Ray Comfort's works. I'm still having the feeling that you're seeing Iron Chariots as a private sandbox to go after Comfort's entire body of work, and the articles you're generating are coming in too fast for anybody to review them, or perhaps even read them. They don't seem to be strongly cohesive integrated with the rest of the site, the main focus of which is to be a resource for specific arguments with organized responses. However, here's my alternate suggestion.

A more focused website that is centered around your special interest in Ray would probably be a very useful and more appropriate resource. Call it whatever you want, make it as polemic and opinionated as you want. Make it the official "I Hate Ray Comfort" site if you like. Heck, "ihateraycomfort.com" is available, and I'm sure you could come up with other variations that suit your intentions. You seem like somebody who knows how to set up a website, but if not I'd be happy to recommend resources for getting started, and if necessary, help migrate those articles to HTML pages.

I'd be more than happy to have one main article about Ray Comfort which, in addition to providing short explanations and links to his common arguments, also links to your site. You could include a paragraph-long blurb in the links section saying how thorough and extensive it is, and you would have full creative control over it without my (I'm sure) annoying meddling.

What do you say? --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 08:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Plus, you'd avoid my criticism when I actually do read one or two of the RC articles here. Thanks for removing the gay stereotyping from the "convert your family!" WotM episode review, though. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 10:32, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir did most of the work, I don't want to remove what he wrote. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 12:03, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:Maybe you could start something jointly? --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 12:26, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Thank you for inviting me to this discussion. My thoughts on Kazim's idea are mixed. When I first arrived on IronChariots, I was aware that it was used to confront specific theistic arguments, but when I saw that IC had only 4 review/critiques of Ray's programs and barely a paragraph for one of his books, I thought perhaps there was a little more to IC. At the time, I thought the least I could do was muster some time and man-power to expand IC operations. Now, while I am sure my time and hard work is much appreciated, the thought of having a website is intriguing but an unsure feeling keeps creeping around me.

Proxima, would it be more suiting if we moved all our work (both yours and mine) to Atheism.wiki or would an independent website created by the both of us be more suiting? If the conclusion would be a website, the next difficult part is to make something "uniqueness" I guess. Several rationalist websites confront Ray Comfort (such as forums like WeAreSMRT and the Rational Response Squad) but none of them give a "walk through" of Ray's materials, pointing out and documenting every flaw in Ray's material. For my own two cents: if I had my own website confronting creationists, it would not focus entirely on Ray Comfort. But before I go any further into that, we must first decide if a website would be the best option, and if it would be the case, I would do what I can to contribute. If not, we will work things out. What say you? [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:22, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:It seems that Proxima has already moved a lot of the material I always wished to preserve the most to Atheism.wikia, for which I am most grateful (and soon I will be a user to contribute more). The question of the website still remains open, where Proxima and I (and possibly more) can both decide how to format whatever as we see fit. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:35, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Now that Wolf's spoken up, I feel that there's a misinterpretation of "refuting specific theistic arguments". Ray doesn't make new theistic arguments in each of his works, he simply repeats the same arguments over and over (sometimes with minor variations). Once you've made pages for argument from design, personal revelation, and fear of hell, then made appropriate redirects to them (banana argument to argument from design, for example), you've got his entire body of work almost completely refuted. Having a page about him where it lists the specific arguments he makes and links to pages about those arguments is a good thing. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

For several years [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki] has stagnated because I thought working to build up this site and RationalWiki would help the cause more. Recently I decided working more on Atheism Wiki is worthwhile because this wiki caters for intellectuals and RationalWiki is becoming steadily more intellectual. Nobody is catering for less intellectual types like high school students with religious doubts.

This is your website, it’s your choice whether you keep the Way of the Master Series or not. I’m sorry that you want to delete it because Google ranks it very high on the first page. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:08, 15 November 2011 (CST)

It’s up to you, Feredir if you want to do your own blog, I’m more experienced with wikis but learning how to do a blog could be interesting. I plan to work hard on refuting Ray Comfort on Atheism Wiki for 3 reasons.
#I already know how to work with wikis.
#Transferring work from one wiki to another is quick and relatively little needs doing to refit the material.
#On a wiki there is always the chance other people with bad experience of Ray Comfort will join the wiki and help us. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:17, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:I agree with you Proxima regarding working on a wiki. I too would prefer to work on a wiki since I already know how to do it. I already have my own blog, but I prefer working on wikis like RationalWiki, and info travels faster I think that way since anyone can take the time to contribute and spread the word. I like the sense of teamwork, which is why I helped create [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trolling_With_Logic TWL] [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 14:30, 15 November 2011 (CST)

An unsure feeling keeps creeping around me too, I’m sure together we can make material on Atheism Wiki presentable, how long will it take before Google picks it up?

I agree we should deal with other fundamentalists as well as Ray Comfort. Feredir lives relatively near to Ray Comfort and has first-hand experience of his influence. So I thought, “OK, let’s spend six months or so refuting Ray Comfort, when we’ve dealt with Ray and Kirk exhaustively we can consider doing something else." My 2 cents are that the first priority should be to get [[The Way of the Master]] complete because red links in the template look bad. Once that’s completed, we can start work debunking other fundamentalists. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:What term are you googling to see ICW on the first page? The only one I saw when I just tried a few was "Ray Comfort", at the bottom. I think you underestimate people who have religious doubts and do them a disservice by thinking of them as "less intellectual", which would help explain why your approach to refuting RC's work is so odd. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

::I've already pointed out several times that Google collects data on individual users and tailors their results to what it thinks you want to see. Just because you see it first in the results doesn't mean that anyone else does. I don't even see it on the first page. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 16:49, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Another thing I want to check on is, did you create the atheism wikia page? If not, have you checked with the creators in advance to see if it fits their style guidelines? I'd hate for you to waste a bunch of additional work. That's one reason why I suggested that a personal web page (neither a wiki nor a blog, but a privately maintained and organized collection of articles) might be the way you want to go. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 16:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir and I both think people who've viewed a WOTM video should be able to find a refutation of that video. Also people who want to know what is in a WOTM video without watching it should be able to find the information. It's not up to you what we do on our own website. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 15:02, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:I'm not telling you what to do on your own website (why are you continuing to discuss it on this website, anyway? Do you or Feredir not have e-mail?), we crossposted because you write your replies over multiple posts instead of making use of the "show preview" button. My reply was aimed at your claims that the WotM refutations cater to "less intellectual" people, because if you're doing this with the idea that you're an intellectual and that you're writing for the benefit of people of lesser intelligence, you're just turning atheism into a form of "white man's burden" and failing at the very goal you're trying to achieve by doing all these refutations in the first place. Your work is getting bumped from RationalWiki and here because you refuse to see that. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 17:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

The articles I transfered to Atheism Wiki [http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&cp=16&gs_id=1q&xhr=t&q=the+way+of+the+master&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=the+way+of+the+m&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=afba954cc67558fd&biw=1180&bih=541 now rank high on Google] and that includes new material I've written there. Things have ended well, there's no longer any problem, it's up to the site owners how much [[:Category:Ray Comfort|Ray Comfort]] related material to keep here, I've copied it all. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:15, 5 December 2011 (CST)

== Deletions and restorations ==
I understand (from the thread above) that there have been problems with the Ray Comfort related articles lately, but [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=Proxima+Centauri&page= why have you deleted articles] that had extensive content ''before'' you even edited them? For example, you deleted (and I just restored) [[The Beauty of a Broken Spirit—Atheism (Way of the Master)]], [[The Firefighter (Way of the Master)]], and even [[Template:Wayofthemaster]], all of which were originally created and heavily edited by the founders of this wiki (and other administrators). In other words, those articles were not "yours to delete". I've restored all of them to their respective states before you and/or [[User:Feredir28|Feredir28]] first edited them (since I assume your intention was to remove your and his contributions, and you just got a bit sloppy doing that). You also deleted [[The Satanic Influence (Way of the Master)]], which neither of you ever edited in the first place. A quick glance through the deleted content didn't reveal anything inappropriate, so I've restored that article, too. I didn't restore any articles you or Feredir28 created. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 05:21, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:OK [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 08:13, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::Hi Dcljr, please check the bottom of the talk page on Ray Comfort. I requested that the reorganization happen, my preference is to cut down on / relocate the articles specifically addressing individual apologists' bodies of work. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:08, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::: Hmm. I [[Talk:Ray Comfort|still don't see]] where you suggested that all the articles be deleted, only particular contributions to them. Feel free to re-delete the articles, if you feel that's best. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 14:00, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::: I think you, Kazim and the other senior administrators should decide among yourselves what to do. I'm tired of all this. I'm tired of Jdog regularly making us angrier than we were before we read his comments. I'm tired of weeks of hard work followed by being told off by Kazim, Jdog and others. I'm tired of senior administrators leaving the wiki alone for long periods without saying what they want, then blaming Feredir and me when things are not their liking. That's the one and only time so far that I can remember when I've agreed with Jdog over anything important.

:::: I've copied what matters to Feredir and me to [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki] and it is up to you what you do here. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 15:18, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::: I haven't had time to consider this but my first suggestion is to leave things as [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] left it. I suspect Kazim and I were wrong to get everything deleted, the next phase in this argument could easily be that the authors of deleted material, (not by Feredir and me) will complain. Then the dispute could escalate with Jdog making criticisms all round. At least let's leave things as they are for a week or so to give cooling off time and to give the senior administrators time to think and discuss the issue. As I said I'm not keen to be involved further. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 16:35, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::::: (Apologies for continuing this on your talk page, but...) FWIW, I don't consider myself a "senior administrator". The only valid distinction, IMO, is between [[Special:Listusers/sysop|regular admins and bureaucrats]]. I don't know who [[User:EnthusOcn|EnthusOcn]] is, but the other 3 bureaucrats are the ones who founded the wiki in the first place, so they should decide what they want to do with it. I would point out, however, that four articles have been "featured" on the [[Main Page]] for years now, all point-by-point refutations of individual apologetical works. Are we not doing that anymore? This should be discussed on-wiki somewhere; I suggest [[Iron Chariots Wiki talk:Editing guidelines#What are we doing here?]], since this obviously has implications for what we want to say on that project page. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 17:54, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::::: More discussion was added at the Editing Guidelines talk page. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:02, 23 November 2011 (CST)

User talk:Kazim

2011-12-06T07:02:54Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Ray Comfort */

In the [[Special:Logs|Logs]], I see you deleted [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Searching]] on Aug 19th, saying, "''This is the second time this page has popped up as a redirect, and I don't know why''". I do. It's linked to from the [[Special:Search/fubar|Search results]] page when you do an unsuccessful search (follow last link to see example). - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 02:07, 26 August 2006 (MST)
: Actually, it shows up on [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?search=bible&fulltext=Search successful searches], too. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 02:36, 26 August 2006 (MST)

==Known issues==
Since registering a few hours ago, I've made an initial pass through the wiki (main navigation pages, special pages) looking for "obvious" problems. I've collected them at [[User:Dcljr/Sandbox]]. Basically, I wanted to give you (and [[User:Sans Deity|Matt]]) a heads-up before I go in changing everything. <w> - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 03:41, 26 August 2006 (MST)

== Spaces in URLs ==

I've replied on [[User talk:Dcljr#Wow|my talk page]]. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 03:13, 29 August 2006 (MST)

== Comment-box ==
The only extra typing which is required is "text=" (as you could just start the text section with <nowiki>'''Comment:'''</nowiki>). The old comment-box didn't format correctly in every situation (if, for example a picture or menu div or anything else exists to the right or left of it) which required me to make comment-box2 (to adjust the right margin) and might have eventually lead to comment-box3,4,5,6,7,8,9 (to adjust left margin or color or anything else). That could all be replaced with one template, so why not do it? Additionally, templates which use <nowiki>{{{1}}}</nowiki> (unnamed parameters) have additional limitations that prevent some "behind the scenes" stuff from working - unnamed parameters, for example, don't always work well when referencing one template from within another. - [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 10:44, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

: Actually, using "text=" AND typing the extra bolded word "comment" is a lot of extra typing, especially considering that it will be repeated many times over throughout the course of an article.
: Despite the issues you raised, it seems to me that the generic box is shorter and easier for most simple text. What if I reintroduced Comment-box and made it reference Comment-box1 as a special case? Then we could still use Comment-box1 any time we need to use a picture or whatever. -- [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:14, 10 September 2006 (CDT)
:: I guess that would be ok, the problem is that if people add pictures or sidebars later, without properly understanding the templates it's going to be a bit of work for them to figure out that the need to completely change which template is referenced. Instead of looking at the template in use and simply changing/adding a parameter, they now have to completely switch templates. I'd rather type a little extra now so that the only thing an editor would need to do is add a "width=" (or similar). I suppose it's ok to have a million templates but I just want the templates to be manageable and having one template that had a pretty solid default function while allowing optional parameters to be set. One thing we'll definitely want to do, either way, is categorize templates and make sure that they're well documented - which would include documenting all similar template.

:: Generally, I'm of the opinion that "Comment-box1" shouldn't be considered a "special case" template, it should be the default - because it's the one that doesn't suffer from the problems that "Comment-box" suffers from. But that's just me...add it if you like, I'll be typing the extra few characters. To me, it's not just about which solution requires me to type less, it's about which solution is more useful and simpler. Why learn many templates for comment boxes when you only have to learn one? Maybe we don't want every comment in a given article to have the "Comment:" preface, some should maybe be "See also:" or "Response:". Maybe we don't want them all to be the same color...if a particular comment is more important or references another article it may deserve another color. Comments where we agree with the apologist might deserve a different color than where we disagree or where their claims represent immoral beliefs. - [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 20:33, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

== Doubting Thomas and Kirk Cameron? ==

I don't understand how the "[[I used to be an atheist]]" argument has precedent in [[Doubting Thomas]] (see [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=I_used_to_be_an_atheist&curid=1378&diff=7905&oldid=6269&rcid=6554 this change]). Could you please spell it out? --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 10:34, 15 December 2007 (CST)
:Expanded now; see article. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 18:40, 15 December 2007 (CST)

== citations ==

Are website citations and references possible on this wiki? I have yet to find a page that uses them, so I Decided it wouldn't be a bad idea to ask.
--[[User:Enshoku|Enshoku]] 21:12, 29 April 2008 (CDT)
:I think I know what you're talking about, but you might want to check with dcljr. He's kind of our resident Wiki technician.
--[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 06:50, 30 April 2008 (CDT)
::Will ask, thanks for the help!
--[[User:Enshoku|Enshoku]] 17:25, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

== Vandal ==

Watch for a Vandal calling himself Yerranos. He's a fundy Christian doing secular Wikis. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 13:32, 21 June 2008 (CDT)

:Thanks for the tip. I have to say I misread your message the first time, and I went through your own recent edits saying to myself, "Hey, Proxima Centauri doesn't sound so much like a vandal..." :) --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 10:31, 22 June 2008 (CDT)

Yeah, I've been meaning to talk to you about this. How do you make sure no one is vandalizing the wiki? What if some Christian like Yerranos starts deleting articles. Will our work be wasted?--[[User:Wissam hemadeh|wissam hemadeh]] 15:18, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

== Donations ==

Hello, Russell

I've been hoping you guys would get an automated donation system going by now, but decided to press the issue. I demand that you give me a way to send money to this project!

Hmm, let's see. I think there's supposed to be something I do at the end of a wiki edit. Maybe this is it. [[User:Beriukay|Beriukay]] 07:41, 13 May 2009 (CDT)

: Hi Beriukay, thanks for your interest. If you want to donate, I suggest you sent it to the Atheist Community of Austin and mark your donation as earmarked for Iron Chariots. You can donate at [http://atheist-community.org/donate/ this link].

:: Thanks Kazim. That was painless. [[User:Beriukay|Beriukay]]

== Short URL ==

You might've already considered it, or maybe even never thought about it, but having index.php?title= in the sites URLs looks yucky, unprofessional, and somewhat annoying if manually typing out an address. It's relatively easy to get rid of the index.php?title= part so it's like it is on Wikipedia. Instructions can be found [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Short_URL#Setup_steps here] - [[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 07:26, 17 June 2009 (CDT)

== Wiki Date / Time is off ==

The wiki's clock seems to be off by more than a week.... [[User:Jwissick|Jwissick]] 01:38, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

== A suggestion ==

I've been doing some research and found some huge websites related to religious issues. Unfortunately, Christians and Muslims dominate the web. I was thinking of doing some more group projects on this wiki, as in critiques of theistic websites, articles, books, debates, philosopgers (Craig, Plantinga, Swinburne, Behe) etc etc. I don't get the obsession with Ray Comfort- he's the dumbest person I've seen.--[[User:Wissam hemadeh|wissam hemadeh]] 15:27, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

Also, the wiki seems to have little insight on the religions themselves. What we have is great but take a look at this website for example, www.answering-islam.com >It's a Christian website which attacks Islam, and it is extraordinary.--[[User:Wissam hemadeh|wissam hemadeh]] 15:27, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

:Feel free to add them! --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 14:28, 15 April 2010 (CDT)

== Activation of LaTeX? ==

The UI for this site has a math button, but it doesn't work:

<math>\hat{H}|\psi\rangle = \frac{\partial}{\partial t} |\psi\rangle</math>

Is it possible to get this enabled? There's a basic guide here:

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Enable_TeX

I've done stuff kinda like this before; it could be time-consuming or trivial depending on what kind of server you've got set up. Just curious if this could be fixed. It's more than a little weird being on a site that talks about science and logic, and only having HTML to work with, but I know you guys are busy, so it's not a huge deal if that's all we've got.

== Christhiru is a Dick ==

I've never used wiki software before so I'm not sure if this is the right place to posit this, but every change the user Christhiru has made needs to be undone and his account needs to be banned. He basically deletes entire, valid, well formed, articles and occasionally adds a link to his sh*tty apologist blog. I have no idea how to go about undoing his many changes to the site or how to launch some kind of formal complaint, but Christhiru is a dick and he needs to be stopped ASAP.

== FF searchplugin ==

I've been trying to work out how to make an Iron Chariots searchplugin for firefox for the last few hours to no avail. Can you help me or defer to someone who could help me? I think it would also be a good idea to add an autodiscovery feature to the site just so people can 'add' the site to the search bar.

== Secularism and Xianity ==

Sorry for posting this on this talk page, but for some reason I cannot use the forum - I tried numerous times, used different names, but still it never allows me in. Anyway, Im here for some help. Over the years, I have heard from many Christians that their religion is responsible for creating many things (reason, science, democracy, morality, ect.) and I am sure we have heard some form of it once. For this, I recently created the article [[Christianity invented science]] and explained why it is wrong. I chose this one because it is growing in the conservative academia and Christian apologetic literature. However, there is just one more topic I want to address, the delusion that Christianity invented secularism. I would not bother with this unless it was no growing as well, but I see it very frequently. Anyway, I know we already have a article on separation of church and state, but I wanted to know if I should create an entirely new article refuting the stance that secularism is a Christian idea and separation of church and state was invented to keep government out of religion and not the other way around. What should I do? [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 15:35, 12 September 2011 (CDT)

:You probably should have read the instructions in the [http://forum.ironchariots.org/viewtopic.php?t=278 access request forum]. Anyway, I've added Feredir28 to the member group, I'm assuming that's you. [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 12:52, 13 September 2011 (CDT)

::Thank you, I shall move this topic to the forum. Pardons for not noticing that page. Yes, I'm Feredir. Again, thank you. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 14:08, 13 September 2011 (CDT)

== Ray Comfort ==

Have you plans to write a refutation of Ray Comfort’s views? [[Talk:Ray Comfort#"Favorite arguments" section|Two users are concerned]]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:08, 4 November 2011 (CDT)

Yeah, have there been any more advances on that? Oh and Kazim? we need another plug for iron chariots on the Non-Prophets, we havent had one FOREVER!....and congrats on the wedding!I made a [[Rick Perry]] page,and it has something on it about a group called the New Apostolic Reformation you should read...the youtube video I linked to summarizing it was rather good, it would be humorous on the show.....
[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

:I've already clearly expressed what I'd like the Ray Comfort page to look like on the associated talk page, and it doesn't include extensive argumentation -- that's for pages about arguments. I will try to remember to plug IC on Saturday, and I'll also be talking with Matt about what needs to happen next with software upgrades and anti-spam measures. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 17:16, 18 November 2011 (CST)

okay, thanks for the update. [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

If you need someone to help delete spam, I can do some of that every once in a while...(i have no life)
For some reason, i am unable to access your blog, it just shows spinning cogs....
[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

User talk:Proxima Centauri

2011-12-06T05:14:01Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Praise and Glory to the FSM! */

I’m lonely here as nobody has spoken to me yet. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:03, 24 July 2009 (CDT)
:Awww. There, there. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:46, 31 July 2009 (CDT)
::<irony>Thanks for being so understanding. </irony> [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:04, 1 August 2009 (CDT)
:Glad to see there are some folks who actually use the chat functions on these wiki pages. I mostly just edit, but I guess I'll have to check them. Off hand, you wouldn't happen to know if there's any way to encode formal logic on this page, would you? The standard wiki form doesn't work. - JStein (8:49, 9/13/2011)

I see you started a WOTM program review. *Big hugs* I have made multiple requests for help on RW, YouTube, and [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trolling_With_Logic TWL]. You are the first person to give a helping hand. Thanks mate, I really appreciate it. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 15:25, 6 October 2011 (CDT)

==Multiverse==
Any chance that we could not use the '''Multiverse''' "theory" here? It's currently an untestable claim that has no evidence to support it, not a scientific theory. I certainly agree that it's ''possible'', but until we have a way of detecting other universes, it's an irrational claim and not suitable for use in counter-apologetics. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 09:36, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

:[http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Kalam&curid=2213&diff=18138&oldid=18111&rcid=17057 I think the mustiverse theory prevents God being proved]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 11:10, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

::It does no such thing. The multiverse ''concept'' (please provide scientific evidence for the claim or stop calling it a theory) simply moves the problem up one level; a theist just has to claim that "God caused the multiverse to exist" and you're back where you started, plus you've added another unprovable claim to the mix. If anything, the concept of parallel universes could potentially be used to explain the conflicts between omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 20:54, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

I’ve taken it out as the issue is not worth so much trouble and I risk getting behind with refuting [[Ray Comfort]]. In my opinion the [[wikipedia:Multiverse|Muliverse]] is valid against [[Kalam]] because Kalam explicitly states, “Everything that '''starts to exist''' needs a cause and the Multiverse didn’t necessarily , '''start to exist'''. I agree the Multiverse does not work against general first cause arguments. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:35, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

==Ray Comfort==
Ray Comfort is, as they say on the Non-Prophets, an ASSHAT (anyone playing the Non-Prophets drinking game?). Pretend i said all this in an Australian pirate accent so it counts as six drinks if you are. Anyway, lets all unite against creationist asshats. I'm just doing some minor editing, correcting some spelling mistakes, maybe adding a sentence or two when needed. Does anyone else visit this site, or are the fundie asshats trying to get rid of us?
SOMEONE TELL ME HOW TO USE THE CHAT, i just did this by clicking edit on your page, then inserted my username how everyone else's was. [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]] 0334, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

You can find out how active the site is by [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges Clicking this link], alternatively you can click Recent changes 3 lines below the picture of the chariot and horses near the top left hand side of the page. To talk a user you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the Userpage and to talk about an article you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the article.

This is an atheist website and Christians can’t stop us being ungodly here, see [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Neutral point of view]]. [[User:Feredir28|Feredir28]] has been working very hard helping refute [[Ray Comfort]] as have others. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:04, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

Okay, thanks. You're on here too much, all the edits I see are from me, you, and two other people. Kazim and Sans Deity need to start "plugging" this site on the Non-Prophets and the Atheist Experience more, we need more people! [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

== Spam/vandalism ==

Lol, when I tried saving one of those marked as spam, I was told you had just deleted it. <impolite>Don't you have a life either?</impolite>

Is there no way we can upgrade the MediaWiki software? The latest version should make user-management, and thus spam-prevention, within easier reach. Sure, it will add some bureaucracy to new user creation, but won't it be worth it?

:You could try asking, [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]], he's the site owner. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:24, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

::I see he's probably too busy. Especially as an upgrade, apparently ANY upgrade beyond the current version, would require an upgrade of PHP. Which looks like it would involve the ISP...
::Something tells me that the most effective solution would be to find a new ISP, export and import, and then transfer the domain name to the new site. All of course without stealing the domain from Sans Deity.
::Isn't this interesting? I didn't even know there was a forum. How much more work would that involve?
::I can feel myself giving up here. --[[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 05:53, 9 October 2011 (CDT)
Bother... I think I'll leave you to it. I'll stick to fixing typos... --[[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 02:31, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

::: He's going to get to it after wedding season. Be patient please, no coup is required. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:05, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

I think the computer must have delayed before you found out I'd deleted that stuff. While I'm checking regularly I don't need delete templates but if ever I can't check for any reason delete templates will be very useful. Any admin who gets to delete just needs to go to [[:Category:Pages for deletion]] and find a bunch of articles all together ready to delete. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 10:12, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

== Clean up ==

I rolled back some changes and I don't have time to monitor and fix everything. I've been getting complaints about some regulars adding sloppy speculation and changing the site from informative to a personal, sloppy, speculative bitch-slapping of apologists. Dig through your changes....and wherever you've added unfounded accusations, speculations or snide comments - remove them. I'm going to check back after the wedding and if there aren't improvements, I'll be locking the site down, upgrading it and changing policies and permissions. This isn't a place to talk shit about apologists or post things that might cause unnecessary problems. You CANNOT simply toss around accusations about financial motivations - that leads to legal problems, and I'd prefer if people didn't post sloppy arguments. [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 01:22, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

:First, my thanks to Proxima about AtheistWiki, but before we go there mate, we have work to do. I will go through all my material on Ray Comfort - that includes the programs, books, and main page. Nobody here meant harm, but we will not be divide over this issue and continue to work together. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:03, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

I haven’t got time to go through your edits and I’m going to bed soon, I’ve had an infection recently. On this wiki are writers who’ve done really good hard hitting stuff about the [[Problem of evil]] and other difficult topics. '''Please write nothing here that could offend those writers or which those writers may not like.''' You can write snark and offensive stuff at RationalWiki or [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki], '''just don’t break any libel laws'''. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 13:42, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
*:I appreciate the fixes. Please take a moment to check out the newly added "types of pages" section under [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Editing guidelines]] for a little more guidance in how pages ought to look. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 18:16, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

== Atheist groups in ... ==

I suggest merging all those '''[[Special:Deadendpages|Atheist groups in some-country-or-state]]''' pages into one '''List of atheist groups''' page, organised, naturally, by continent, country and state. The current state of myriad miniature "articles" seems... silly.

May I? [[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 07:02, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

Please ask [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] or [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]], both know more about this wiki than I do. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 09:36, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

:Yes please. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:04, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

==Praise and Glory to the FSM!==
What do you think of the edit I did on the page about the FSM? We need a [[War on Christmas]] page, but I'm going to sleep, its 3 Am(pacific time)[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I like it but what the established administrators like counts for more here than what I like. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 06:17, 7 November 2011 (CST)

PLEASE CHECK MY NEW PAGE ON RICK PERRY. It needs more info, linked to my sources in the page, sorry i dont have time to look at my sources more and post more info, it is DAMNED important this gets up and running, as it might prevent another crazy religious president like Bush. One was enough. [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I have no problem about the article on [[Rick Perry]] but please check with [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] as he is the site owner. I suggest writing mainly material demonstrating that Perry’s position on religion is irrational as this wiki is primarily about countering irrational religion. I suggest checking the sources in the RationalWiki article for information but here you should write respectfully. Googling [http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=rick%20perry%2Breligious%20nut&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f9736ba80af0173&biw=1198&bih=541&pf=p&pdl=3000 rick perry+religious nut] will get you information that will sometimes need rewriting respectfully. Googling [http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=rick+perry%2Breligious%2Birrational&pbx=1&oq=rick+perry%2Breligious%2Birrational&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=44304l47432l0l50604l11l11l0l0l0l0l178l1412l3.8l11l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f9736ba80af0173&biw=1198&bih=541 rick perry+religious+irrational] will get information that won’t need rewording respectfully so often. I also suggest that you look for websites where political material is expected.

I’m from the UK and I don’t fully understand American politics, I personally fear Mitt Romney because he stands the biggest chance of defeating Obama as far as I know. [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Mitt_Romney Mitt Romney] flip flops so much nobody knows what he would do as president. RationalWiki accepts articles about all relevant issues over the [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/2012_U.S._Presidential_Election 2012 U.S. Presidential Election] and has articles about most of the [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/2012_U.S._Presidential_Election#Republican_Party possible Republican runners], you can register there and add to articles or write new ones but not all the editors are polite or well behaved. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

I'm from Canada (different time zones suck) and i dont think if i put the bit about the N.A.R. by itself it would really do anything......however, if it is linked to rick perry, then people will notice (hopefully....). i know sans deity is the site owner, i joined this site because i heard about it from some old episodes of the non prophets. My source is legitimate, as it is from national public radio, and it seems unbiased. i dunno, just put it up there because it seems to have some relevance to me.what's your personal opinion of those N.A.R. folks?
anyways, let me know if you need help deleting spam, i have some free time on my hands. Right now, i think this website is a damn good reference, dont you agree? [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I don't need help deleting spam as only administrators can delete. I don't know much about the N.A.R. Do you mean the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation New Apostolic Reformation]? I know no more about them than what's in the Wikipedia article. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

Yes, thats what i meant, the youtube video i linked is part of a series by that user that goes into detail about their beliefs (the npr article i posted,[http://www.npr.org/2011/08/24/139781021/the-evangelicals-engaged-in-spiritual-warfare Link] was great too, but less in detail and colorful, as well as being worth less laughs) , and how bat shit crazy they are. for the love of spaghetti, they think oprah is the freakin antichrist! they should cover that crap on the [[Non-Prophets]], it would get so many laughs! i mean, they are the new spanish inquisition without the torture and censorship (at the moment), and they are trying to gain popularity? thats like another hitler staging rock concerts![[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

So, whats religion like in the U.K.?[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

We have some street corner evangelists but most people in Britain are apathetic about religion or skeptical. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:07, 11 November 2011 (CST)

Just like here. I know two and only two christian people under 20. ahhh religion, die already.
Been lotsa spam lately huh?
[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I fear the spam will continue till one of the top administrators gets as [[Wikipedia:CAPTCHA|CAPTCHA]]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:11, 13 November 2011 (CST)

Meh, it just shows how morally "superior" theists are.[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]
How's my favorite heathen doing? I've been enjoying the new video game that just came out, Call of Duty, Modern Warfare 3. Do anything interesting? [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

Well, what have I been doing? [http://atheism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&limit=100 I’ve written any amount of stuff about Ray Comfort and other topics at Atheism Wiki]. I watched <s>mindless</s> inspiring video material by Ray Comfort so I could comment effectively.

I went for walks in local parks so I would get general exercise and wouldn’t just exercise my typing fingers. I read ordinary books and newspapers in cafes and libraries etc so I would spend some time away from my flat and my computer. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:01, 5 December 2011 (CST)

Sounds fun, I'm reading stuff on the website of the FSM, the hate mail is quite interesting. You play any video games (I need to further the stereotype of all atheists being nerds!!)?? I've been watching the latest American election stuffs, and i must say, the Republicans are really, really, really, really, really, realllllyyyy stupid this year. [[Rick Perry]], Michele Bachman, and Sarah Palin especially. Oh and another guy, Mick Romney, put out an Obama smear ad, where he quoted Obama quoting someone else.... I swear, they are TRYING to lose. [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

RAtionalWiki has a '''[http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Category:2012_US_Presidential_Election Whole Category]''' with plenty or articles making fun of them all. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:09, 5 December 2011 (CST)

Are you on rational wiki? If so, can you add my bit about the New Apostolic Reformation from my [[Rick Perry]] page to theirs? [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

== Proposal for Ray Comfort articles ==

Hi Proxima,

I'd like to make a modest proposal regarding the large amount of work you've done on all of Ray Comfort's works. I'm still having the feeling that you're seeing Iron Chariots as a private sandbox to go after Comfort's entire body of work, and the articles you're generating are coming in too fast for anybody to review them, or perhaps even read them. They don't seem to be strongly cohesive integrated with the rest of the site, the main focus of which is to be a resource for specific arguments with organized responses. However, here's my alternate suggestion.

A more focused website that is centered around your special interest in Ray would probably be a very useful and more appropriate resource. Call it whatever you want, make it as polemic and opinionated as you want. Make it the official "I Hate Ray Comfort" site if you like. Heck, "ihateraycomfort.com" is available, and I'm sure you could come up with other variations that suit your intentions. You seem like somebody who knows how to set up a website, but if not I'd be happy to recommend resources for getting started, and if necessary, help migrate those articles to HTML pages.

I'd be more than happy to have one main article about Ray Comfort which, in addition to providing short explanations and links to his common arguments, also links to your site. You could include a paragraph-long blurb in the links section saying how thorough and extensive it is, and you would have full creative control over it without my (I'm sure) annoying meddling.

What do you say? --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 08:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Plus, you'd avoid my criticism when I actually do read one or two of the RC articles here. Thanks for removing the gay stereotyping from the "convert your family!" WotM episode review, though. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 10:32, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir did most of the work, I don't want to remove what he wrote. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 12:03, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:Maybe you could start something jointly? --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 12:26, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Thank you for inviting me to this discussion. My thoughts on Kazim's idea are mixed. When I first arrived on IronChariots, I was aware that it was used to confront specific theistic arguments, but when I saw that IC had only 4 review/critiques of Ray's programs and barely a paragraph for one of his books, I thought perhaps there was a little more to IC. At the time, I thought the least I could do was muster some time and man-power to expand IC operations. Now, while I am sure my time and hard work is much appreciated, the thought of having a website is intriguing but an unsure feeling keeps creeping around me.

Proxima, would it be more suiting if we moved all our work (both yours and mine) to Atheism.wiki or would an independent website created by the both of us be more suiting? If the conclusion would be a website, the next difficult part is to make something "uniqueness" I guess. Several rationalist websites confront Ray Comfort (such as forums like WeAreSMRT and the Rational Response Squad) but none of them give a "walk through" of Ray's materials, pointing out and documenting every flaw in Ray's material. For my own two cents: if I had my own website confronting creationists, it would not focus entirely on Ray Comfort. But before I go any further into that, we must first decide if a website would be the best option, and if it would be the case, I would do what I can to contribute. If not, we will work things out. What say you? [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:22, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:It seems that Proxima has already moved a lot of the material I always wished to preserve the most to Atheism.wikia, for which I am most grateful (and soon I will be a user to contribute more). The question of the website still remains open, where Proxima and I (and possibly more) can both decide how to format whatever as we see fit. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:35, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Now that Wolf's spoken up, I feel that there's a misinterpretation of "refuting specific theistic arguments". Ray doesn't make new theistic arguments in each of his works, he simply repeats the same arguments over and over (sometimes with minor variations). Once you've made pages for argument from design, personal revelation, and fear of hell, then made appropriate redirects to them (banana argument to argument from design, for example), you've got his entire body of work almost completely refuted. Having a page about him where it lists the specific arguments he makes and links to pages about those arguments is a good thing. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

For several years [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki] has stagnated because I thought working to build up this site and RationalWiki would help the cause more. Recently I decided working more on Atheism Wiki is worthwhile because this wiki caters for intellectuals and RationalWiki is becoming steadily more intellectual. Nobody is catering for less intellectual types like high school students with religious doubts.

This is your website, it’s your choice whether you keep the Way of the Master Series or not. I’m sorry that you want to delete it because Google ranks it very high on the first page. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:08, 15 November 2011 (CST)

It’s up to you, Feredir if you want to do your own blog, I’m more experienced with wikis but learning how to do a blog could be interesting. I plan to work hard on refuting Ray Comfort on Atheism Wiki for 3 reasons.
#I already know how to work with wikis.
#Transferring work from one wiki to another is quick and relatively little needs doing to refit the material.
#On a wiki there is always the chance other people with bad experience of Ray Comfort will join the wiki and help us. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:17, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:I agree with you Proxima regarding working on a wiki. I too would prefer to work on a wiki since I already know how to do it. I already have my own blog, but I prefer working on wikis like RationalWiki, and info travels faster I think that way since anyone can take the time to contribute and spread the word. I like the sense of teamwork, which is why I helped create [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trolling_With_Logic TWL] [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 14:30, 15 November 2011 (CST)

An unsure feeling keeps creeping around me too, I’m sure together we can make material on Atheism Wiki presentable, how long will it take before Google picks it up?

I agree we should deal with other fundamentalists as well as Ray Comfort. Feredir lives relatively near to Ray Comfort and has first-hand experience of his influence. So I thought, “OK, let’s spend six months or so refuting Ray Comfort, when we’ve dealt with Ray and Kirk exhaustively we can consider doing something else." My 2 cents are that the first priority should be to get [[The Way of the Master]] complete because red links in the template look bad. Once that’s completed, we can start work debunking other fundamentalists. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:What term are you googling to see ICW on the first page? The only one I saw when I just tried a few was "Ray Comfort", at the bottom. I think you underestimate people who have religious doubts and do them a disservice by thinking of them as "less intellectual", which would help explain why your approach to refuting RC's work is so odd. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

::I've already pointed out several times that Google collects data on individual users and tailors their results to what it thinks you want to see. Just because you see it first in the results doesn't mean that anyone else does. I don't even see it on the first page. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 16:49, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Another thing I want to check on is, did you create the atheism wikia page? If not, have you checked with the creators in advance to see if it fits their style guidelines? I'd hate for you to waste a bunch of additional work. That's one reason why I suggested that a personal web page (neither a wiki nor a blog, but a privately maintained and organized collection of articles) might be the way you want to go. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 16:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir and I both think people who've viewed a WOTM video should be able to find a refutation of that video. Also people who want to know what is in a WOTM video without watching it should be able to find the information. It's not up to you what we do on our own website. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 15:02, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:I'm not telling you what to do on your own website (why are you continuing to discuss it on this website, anyway? Do you or Feredir not have e-mail?), we crossposted because you write your replies over multiple posts instead of making use of the "show preview" button. My reply was aimed at your claims that the WotM refutations cater to "less intellectual" people, because if you're doing this with the idea that you're an intellectual and that you're writing for the benefit of people of lesser intelligence, you're just turning atheism into a form of "white man's burden" and failing at the very goal you're trying to achieve by doing all these refutations in the first place. Your work is getting bumped from RationalWiki and here because you refuse to see that. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 17:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

The articles I transfered to Atheism Wiki [http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&cp=16&gs_id=1q&xhr=t&q=the+way+of+the+master&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&site=&source=hp&pbx=1&oq=the+way+of+the+m&aq=0&aqi=g4&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=afba954cc67558fd&biw=1180&bih=541 now rank high on Google] and that includes new material I've written there. Things have ended well, there's no longer any problem, it's up to the site owners how much [[:Category:Ray Comfort|Ray Comfort]] related material to keep here, I've copied it all. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:15, 5 December 2011 (CST)

== Deletions and restorations ==
I understand (from the thread above) that there have been problems with the Ray Comfort related articles lately, but [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=Proxima+Centauri&page= why have you deleted articles] that had extensive content ''before'' you even edited them? For example, you deleted (and I just restored) [[The Beauty of a Broken Spirit—Atheism (Way of the Master)]], [[The Firefighter (Way of the Master)]], and even [[Template:Wayofthemaster]], all of which were originally created and heavily edited by the founders of this wiki (and other administrators). In other words, those articles were not "yours to delete". I've restored all of them to their respective states before you and/or [[User:Feredir28|Feredir28]] first edited them (since I assume your intention was to remove your and his contributions, and you just got a bit sloppy doing that). You also deleted [[The Satanic Influence (Way of the Master)]], which neither of you ever edited in the first place. A quick glance through the deleted content didn't reveal anything inappropriate, so I've restored that article, too. I didn't restore any articles you or Feredir28 created. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 05:21, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:OK [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 08:13, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::Hi Dcljr, please check the bottom of the talk page on Ray Comfort. I requested that the reorganization happen, my preference is to cut down on / relocate the articles specifically addressing individual apologists' bodies of work. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:08, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::: Hmm. I [[Talk:Ray Comfort|still don't see]] where you suggested that all the articles be deleted, only particular contributions to them. Feel free to re-delete the articles, if you feel that's best. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 14:00, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::: I think you, Kazim and the other senior administrators should decide among yourselves what to do. I'm tired of all this. I'm tired of Jdog regularly making us angrier than we were before we read his comments. I'm tired of weeks of hard work followed by being told off by Kazim, Jdog and others. I'm tired of senior administrators leaving the wiki alone for long periods without saying what they want, then blaming Feredir and me when things are not their liking. That's the one and only time so far that I can remember when I've agreed with Jdog over anything important.

:::: I've copied what matters to Feredir and me to [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki] and it is up to you what you do here. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 15:18, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::: I haven't had time to consider this but my first suggestion is to leave things as [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] left it. I suspect Kazim and I were wrong to get everything deleted, the next phase in this argument could easily be that the authors of deleted material, (not by Feredir and me) will complain. Then the dispute could escalate with Jdog making criticisms all round. At least let's leave things as they are for a week or so to give cooling off time and to give the senior administrators time to think and discuss the issue. As I said I'm not keen to be involved further. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 16:35, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::::: (Apologies for continuing this on your talk page, but...) FWIW, I don't consider myself a "senior administrator". The only valid distinction, IMO, is between [[Special:Listusers/sysop|regular admins and bureaucrats]]. I don't know who [[User:EnthusOcn|EnthusOcn]] is, but the other 3 bureaucrats are the ones who founded the wiki in the first place, so they should decide what they want to do with it. I would point out, however, that four articles have been "featured" on the [[Main Page]] for years now, all point-by-point refutations of individual apologetical works. Are we not doing that anymore? This should be discussed on-wiki somewhere; I suggest [[Iron Chariots Wiki talk:Editing guidelines#What are we doing here?]], since this obviously has implications for what we want to say on that project page. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 17:54, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::::: More discussion was added at the Editing Guidelines talk page. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:02, 23 November 2011 (CST)

User talk:Proxima Centauri

2011-12-05T10:53:04Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Praise and Glory to the FSM! */

I’m lonely here as nobody has spoken to me yet. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:03, 24 July 2009 (CDT)
:Awww. There, there. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:46, 31 July 2009 (CDT)
::<irony>Thanks for being so understanding. </irony> [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:04, 1 August 2009 (CDT)
:Glad to see there are some folks who actually use the chat functions on these wiki pages. I mostly just edit, but I guess I'll have to check them. Off hand, you wouldn't happen to know if there's any way to encode formal logic on this page, would you? The standard wiki form doesn't work. - JStein (8:49, 9/13/2011)

I see you started a WOTM program review. *Big hugs* I have made multiple requests for help on RW, YouTube, and [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trolling_With_Logic TWL]. You are the first person to give a helping hand. Thanks mate, I really appreciate it. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 15:25, 6 October 2011 (CDT)

==Multiverse==
Any chance that we could not use the '''Multiverse''' "theory" here? It's currently an untestable claim that has no evidence to support it, not a scientific theory. I certainly agree that it's ''possible'', but until we have a way of detecting other universes, it's an irrational claim and not suitable for use in counter-apologetics. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 09:36, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

:[http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Kalam&curid=2213&diff=18138&oldid=18111&rcid=17057 I think the mustiverse theory prevents God being proved]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 11:10, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

::It does no such thing. The multiverse ''concept'' (please provide scientific evidence for the claim or stop calling it a theory) simply moves the problem up one level; a theist just has to claim that "God caused the multiverse to exist" and you're back where you started, plus you've added another unprovable claim to the mix. If anything, the concept of parallel universes could potentially be used to explain the conflicts between omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 20:54, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

I’ve taken it out as the issue is not worth so much trouble and I risk getting behind with refuting [[Ray Comfort]]. In my opinion the [[wikipedia:Multiverse|Muliverse]] is valid against [[Kalam]] because Kalam explicitly states, “Everything that '''starts to exist''' needs a cause and the Multiverse didn’t necessarily , '''start to exist'''. I agree the Multiverse does not work against general first cause arguments. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:35, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

==Ray Comfort==
Ray Comfort is, as they say on the Non-Prophets, an ASSHAT (anyone playing the Non-Prophets drinking game?). Pretend i said all this in an Australian pirate accent so it counts as six drinks if you are. Anyway, lets all unite against creationist asshats. I'm just doing some minor editing, correcting some spelling mistakes, maybe adding a sentence or two when needed. Does anyone else visit this site, or are the fundie asshats trying to get rid of us?
SOMEONE TELL ME HOW TO USE THE CHAT, i just did this by clicking edit on your page, then inserted my username how everyone else's was. [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]] 0334, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

You can find out how active the site is by [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges Clicking this link], alternatively you can click Recent changes 3 lines below the picture of the chariot and horses near the top left hand side of the page. To talk a user you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the Userpage and to talk about an article you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the article.

This is an atheist website and Christians can’t stop us being ungodly here, see [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Neutral point of view]]. [[User:Feredir28|Feredir28]] has been working very hard helping refute [[Ray Comfort]] as have others. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:04, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

Okay, thanks. You're on here too much, all the edits I see are from me, you, and two other people. Kazim and Sans Deity need to start "plugging" this site on the Non-Prophets and the Atheist Experience more, we need more people! [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

== Spam/vandalism ==

Lol, when I tried saving one of those marked as spam, I was told you had just deleted it. <impolite>Don't you have a life either?</impolite>

Is there no way we can upgrade the MediaWiki software? The latest version should make user-management, and thus spam-prevention, within easier reach. Sure, it will add some bureaucracy to new user creation, but won't it be worth it?

:You could try asking, [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]], he's the site owner. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:24, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

::I see he's probably too busy. Especially as an upgrade, apparently ANY upgrade beyond the current version, would require an upgrade of PHP. Which looks like it would involve the ISP...
::Something tells me that the most effective solution would be to find a new ISP, export and import, and then transfer the domain name to the new site. All of course without stealing the domain from Sans Deity.
::Isn't this interesting? I didn't even know there was a forum. How much more work would that involve?
::I can feel myself giving up here. --[[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 05:53, 9 October 2011 (CDT)
Bother... I think I'll leave you to it. I'll stick to fixing typos... --[[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 02:31, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

::: He's going to get to it after wedding season. Be patient please, no coup is required. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:05, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

I think the computer must have delayed before you found out I'd deleted that stuff. While I'm checking regularly I don't need delete templates but if ever I can't check for any reason delete templates will be very useful. Any admin who gets to delete just needs to go to [[:Category:Pages for deletion]] and find a bunch of articles all together ready to delete. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 10:12, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

== Clean up ==

I rolled back some changes and I don't have time to monitor and fix everything. I've been getting complaints about some regulars adding sloppy speculation and changing the site from informative to a personal, sloppy, speculative bitch-slapping of apologists. Dig through your changes....and wherever you've added unfounded accusations, speculations or snide comments - remove them. I'm going to check back after the wedding and if there aren't improvements, I'll be locking the site down, upgrading it and changing policies and permissions. This isn't a place to talk shit about apologists or post things that might cause unnecessary problems. You CANNOT simply toss around accusations about financial motivations - that leads to legal problems, and I'd prefer if people didn't post sloppy arguments. [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 01:22, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

:First, my thanks to Proxima about AtheistWiki, but before we go there mate, we have work to do. I will go through all my material on Ray Comfort - that includes the programs, books, and main page. Nobody here meant harm, but we will not be divide over this issue and continue to work together. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:03, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

I haven’t got time to go through your edits and I’m going to bed soon, I’ve had an infection recently. On this wiki are writers who’ve done really good hard hitting stuff about the [[Problem of evil]] and other difficult topics. '''Please write nothing here that could offend those writers or which those writers may not like.''' You can write snark and offensive stuff at RationalWiki or [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki], '''just don’t break any libel laws'''. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 13:42, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
*:I appreciate the fixes. Please take a moment to check out the newly added "types of pages" section under [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Editing guidelines]] for a little more guidance in how pages ought to look. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 18:16, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

== Atheist groups in ... ==

I suggest merging all those '''[[Special:Deadendpages|Atheist groups in some-country-or-state]]''' pages into one '''List of atheist groups''' page, organised, naturally, by continent, country and state. The current state of myriad miniature "articles" seems... silly.

May I? [[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 07:02, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

Please ask [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] or [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]], both know more about this wiki than I do. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 09:36, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

:Yes please. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:04, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

==Praise and Glory to the FSM!==
What do you think of the edit I did on the page about the FSM? We need a [[War on Christmas]] page, but I'm going to sleep, its 3 Am(pacific time)[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I like it but what the established administrators like counts for more here than what I like. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 06:17, 7 November 2011 (CST)

PLEASE CHECK MY NEW PAGE ON RICK PERRY. It needs more info, linked to my sources in the page, sorry i dont have time to look at my sources more and post more info, it is DAMNED important this gets up and running, as it might prevent another crazy religious president like Bush. One was enough. [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I have no problem about the article on [[Rick Perry]] but please check with [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] as he is the site owner. I suggest writing mainly material demonstrating that Perry’s position on religion is irrational as this wiki is primarily about countering irrational religion. I suggest checking the sources in the RationalWiki article for information but here you should write respectfully. Googling [http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=rick%20perry%2Breligious%20nut&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f9736ba80af0173&biw=1198&bih=541&pf=p&pdl=3000 rick perry+religious nut] will get you information that will sometimes need rewriting respectfully. Googling [http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=rick+perry%2Breligious%2Birrational&pbx=1&oq=rick+perry%2Breligious%2Birrational&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=44304l47432l0l50604l11l11l0l0l0l0l178l1412l3.8l11l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f9736ba80af0173&biw=1198&bih=541 rick perry+religious+irrational] will get information that won’t need rewording respectfully so often. I also suggest that you look for websites where political material is expected.

I’m from the UK and I don’t fully understand American politics, I personally fear Mitt Romney because he stands the biggest chance of defeating Obama as far as I know. [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Mitt_Romney Mitt Romney] flip flops so much nobody knows what he would do as president. RationalWiki accepts articles about all relevant issues over the [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/2012_U.S._Presidential_Election 2012 U.S. Presidential Election] and has articles about most of the [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/2012_U.S._Presidential_Election#Republican_Party possible Republican runners], you can register there and add to articles or write new ones but not all the editors are polite or well behaved. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

I'm from Canada (different time zones suck) and i dont think if i put the bit about the N.A.R. by itself it would really do anything......however, if it is linked to rick perry, then people will notice (hopefully....). i know sans deity is the site owner, i joined this site because i heard about it from some old episodes of the non prophets. My source is legitimate, as it is from national public radio, and it seems unbiased. i dunno, just put it up there because it seems to have some relevance to me.what's your personal opinion of those N.A.R. folks?
anyways, let me know if you need help deleting spam, i have some free time on my hands. Right now, i think this website is a damn good reference, dont you agree? [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I don't need help deleting spam as only administrators can delete. I don't know much about the N.A.R. Do you mean the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation New Apostolic Reformation]? I know no more about them than what's in the Wikipedia article. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

Yes, thats what i meant, the youtube video i linked is part of a series by that user that goes into detail about their beliefs (the npr article i posted,[http://www.npr.org/2011/08/24/139781021/the-evangelicals-engaged-in-spiritual-warfare Link] was great too, but less in detail and colorful, as well as being worth less laughs) , and how bat shit crazy they are. for the love of spaghetti, they think oprah is the freakin antichrist! they should cover that crap on the [[Non-Prophets]], it would get so many laughs! i mean, they are the new spanish inquisition without the torture and censorship (at the moment), and they are trying to gain popularity? thats like another hitler staging rock concerts![[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

So, whats religion like in the U.K.?[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

We have some street corner evangelists but most people in Britain are apathetic about religion or skeptical. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:07, 11 November 2011 (CST)

Just like here. I know two and only two christian people under 20. ahhh religion, die already.
Been lotsa spam lately huh?
[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I fear the spam will continue till one of the top administrators gets as [[Wikipedia:CAPTCHA|CAPTCHA]]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:11, 13 November 2011 (CST)

Meh, it just shows how morally "superior" theists are.[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]
How's my favorite heathen doing? I've been enjoying the new video game that just came out, Call of Duty, Modern Warfare 3. Do anything interesting? [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

Well, what have I been doing? [http://atheism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&limit=100 I’ve written any amount of stuff about Ray Comfort and other topics at Atheism Wiki]. I watched <s>mindless</s> inspiring video material by Ray Comfort so I could comment effectively.

I went for walks in local parks so I would get general exercise and wouldn’t just exercise my typing fingers. I read ordinary books and newspapers in cafes and libraries etc so I would spend some time away from my flat and my computer. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:01, 5 December 2011 (CST)

Sounds fun, I'm reading stuff on the website of the FSM, the hate mail is quite interesting. You play any video games (I need to further the stereotype of all atheists being nerds!!)?? I've been watching the latest American election stuffs, and i must say, the Republicans are really, really, really, really, really, realllllyyyy stupid this year. [[Rick Perry]], Michele Bachman, and Sarah Palin especially. Oh and another guy, Mick Romney, put out an Obama smear ad, where he quoted Obama quoting someone else.... I swear, they are TRYING to lose. [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

== Proposal for Ray Comfort articles ==

Hi Proxima,

I'd like to make a modest proposal regarding the large amount of work you've done on all of Ray Comfort's works. I'm still having the feeling that you're seeing Iron Chariots as a private sandbox to go after Comfort's entire body of work, and the articles you're generating are coming in too fast for anybody to review them, or perhaps even read them. They don't seem to be strongly cohesive integrated with the rest of the site, the main focus of which is to be a resource for specific arguments with organized responses. However, here's my alternate suggestion.

A more focused website that is centered around your special interest in Ray would probably be a very useful and more appropriate resource. Call it whatever you want, make it as polemic and opinionated as you want. Make it the official "I Hate Ray Comfort" site if you like. Heck, "ihateraycomfort.com" is available, and I'm sure you could come up with other variations that suit your intentions. You seem like somebody who knows how to set up a website, but if not I'd be happy to recommend resources for getting started, and if necessary, help migrate those articles to HTML pages.

I'd be more than happy to have one main article about Ray Comfort which, in addition to providing short explanations and links to his common arguments, also links to your site. You could include a paragraph-long blurb in the links section saying how thorough and extensive it is, and you would have full creative control over it without my (I'm sure) annoying meddling.

What do you say? --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 08:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Plus, you'd avoid my criticism when I actually do read one or two of the RC articles here. Thanks for removing the gay stereotyping from the "convert your family!" WotM episode review, though. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 10:32, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir did most of the work, I don't want to remove what he wrote. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 12:03, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:Maybe you could start something jointly? --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 12:26, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Thank you for inviting me to this discussion. My thoughts on Kazim's idea are mixed. When I first arrived on IronChariots, I was aware that it was used to confront specific theistic arguments, but when I saw that IC had only 4 review/critiques of Ray's programs and barely a paragraph for one of his books, I thought perhaps there was a little more to IC. At the time, I thought the least I could do was muster some time and man-power to expand IC operations. Now, while I am sure my time and hard work is much appreciated, the thought of having a website is intriguing but an unsure feeling keeps creeping around me.

Proxima, would it be more suiting if we moved all our work (both yours and mine) to Atheism.wiki or would an independent website created by the both of us be more suiting? If the conclusion would be a website, the next difficult part is to make something "uniqueness" I guess. Several rationalist websites confront Ray Comfort (such as forums like WeAreSMRT and the Rational Response Squad) but none of them give a "walk through" of Ray's materials, pointing out and documenting every flaw in Ray's material. For my own two cents: if I had my own website confronting creationists, it would not focus entirely on Ray Comfort. But before I go any further into that, we must first decide if a website would be the best option, and if it would be the case, I would do what I can to contribute. If not, we will work things out. What say you? [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:22, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:It seems that Proxima has already moved a lot of the material I always wished to preserve the most to Atheism.wikia, for which I am most grateful (and soon I will be a user to contribute more). The question of the website still remains open, where Proxima and I (and possibly more) can both decide how to format whatever as we see fit. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:35, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Now that Wolf's spoken up, I feel that there's a misinterpretation of "refuting specific theistic arguments". Ray doesn't make new theistic arguments in each of his works, he simply repeats the same arguments over and over (sometimes with minor variations). Once you've made pages for argument from design, personal revelation, and fear of hell, then made appropriate redirects to them (banana argument to argument from design, for example), you've got his entire body of work almost completely refuted. Having a page about him where it lists the specific arguments he makes and links to pages about those arguments is a good thing. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

For several years [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki] has stagnated because I thought working to build up this site and RationalWiki would help the cause more. Recently I decided working more on Atheism Wiki is worthwhile because this wiki caters for intellectuals and RationalWiki is becoming steadily more intellectual. Nobody is catering for less intellectual types like high school students with religious doubts.

This is your website, it’s your choice whether you keep the Way of the Master Series or not. I’m sorry that you want to delete it because Google ranks it very high on the first page. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:08, 15 November 2011 (CST)

It’s up to you, Feredir if you want to do your own blog, I’m more experienced with wikis but learning how to do a blog could be interesting. I plan to work hard on refuting Ray Comfort on Atheism Wiki for 3 reasons.
#I already know how to work with wikis.
#Transferring work from one wiki to another is quick and relatively little needs doing to refit the material.
#On a wiki there is always the chance other people with bad experience of Ray Comfort will join the wiki and help us. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:17, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:I agree with you Proxima regarding working on a wiki. I too would prefer to work on a wiki since I already know how to do it. I already have my own blog, but I prefer working on wikis like RationalWiki, and info travels faster I think that way since anyone can take the time to contribute and spread the word. I like the sense of teamwork, which is why I helped create [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trolling_With_Logic TWL] [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 14:30, 15 November 2011 (CST)

An unsure feeling keeps creeping around me too, I’m sure together we can make material on Atheism Wiki presentable, how long will it take before Google picks it up?

I agree we should deal with other fundamentalists as well as Ray Comfort. Feredir lives relatively near to Ray Comfort and has first-hand experience of his influence. So I thought, “OK, let’s spend six months or so refuting Ray Comfort, when we’ve dealt with Ray and Kirk exhaustively we can consider doing something else." My 2 cents are that the first priority should be to get [[The Way of the Master]] complete because red links in the template look bad. Once that’s completed, we can start work debunking other fundamentalists. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:What term are you googling to see ICW on the first page? The only one I saw when I just tried a few was "Ray Comfort", at the bottom. I think you underestimate people who have religious doubts and do them a disservice by thinking of them as "less intellectual", which would help explain why your approach to refuting RC's work is so odd. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

::I've already pointed out several times that Google collects data on individual users and tailors their results to what it thinks you want to see. Just because you see it first in the results doesn't mean that anyone else does. I don't even see it on the first page. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 16:49, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Another thing I want to check on is, did you create the atheism wikia page? If not, have you checked with the creators in advance to see if it fits their style guidelines? I'd hate for you to waste a bunch of additional work. That's one reason why I suggested that a personal web page (neither a wiki nor a blog, but a privately maintained and organized collection of articles) might be the way you want to go. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 16:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir and I both think people who've viewed a WOTM video should be able to find a refutation of that video. Also people who want to know what is in a WOTM video without watching it should be able to find the information. It's not up to you what we do on our own website. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 15:02, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:I'm not telling you what to do on your own website (why are you continuing to discuss it on this website, anyway? Do you or Feredir not have e-mail?), we crossposted because you write your replies over multiple posts instead of making use of the "show preview" button. My reply was aimed at your claims that the WotM refutations cater to "less intellectual" people, because if you're doing this with the idea that you're an intellectual and that you're writing for the benefit of people of lesser intelligence, you're just turning atheism into a form of "white man's burden" and failing at the very goal you're trying to achieve by doing all these refutations in the first place. Your work is getting bumped from RationalWiki and here because you refuse to see that. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 17:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

== Deletions and restorations ==
I understand (from the thread above) that there have been problems with the Ray Comfort related articles lately, but [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=Proxima+Centauri&page= why have you deleted articles] that had extensive content ''before'' you even edited them? For example, you deleted (and I just restored) [[The Beauty of a Broken Spirit—Atheism (Way of the Master)]], [[The Firefighter (Way of the Master)]], and even [[Template:Wayofthemaster]], all of which were originally created and heavily edited by the founders of this wiki (and other administrators). In other words, those articles were not "yours to delete". I've restored all of them to their respective states before you and/or [[User:Feredir28|Feredir28]] first edited them (since I assume your intention was to remove your and his contributions, and you just got a bit sloppy doing that). You also deleted [[The Satanic Influence (Way of the Master)]], which neither of you ever edited in the first place. A quick glance through the deleted content didn't reveal anything inappropriate, so I've restored that article, too. I didn't restore any articles you or Feredir28 created. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 05:21, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:OK [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 08:13, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::Hi Dcljr, please check the bottom of the talk page on Ray Comfort. I requested that the reorganization happen, my preference is to cut down on / relocate the articles specifically addressing individual apologists' bodies of work. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:08, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::: Hmm. I [[Talk:Ray Comfort|still don't see]] where you suggested that all the articles be deleted, only particular contributions to them. Feel free to re-delete the articles, if you feel that's best. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 14:00, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::: I think you, Kazim and the other senior administrators should decide among yourselves what to do. I'm tired of all this. I'm tired of Jdog regularly making us angrier than we were before we read his comments. I'm tired of weeks of hard work followed by being told off by Kazim, Jdog and others. I'm tired of senior administrators leaving the wiki alone for long periods without saying what they want, then blaming Feredir and me when things are not their liking. That's the one and only time so far that I can remember when I've agreed with Jdog over anything important.

:::: I've copied what matters to Feredir and me to [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki] and it is up to you what you do here. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 15:18, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::: I haven't had time to consider this but my first suggestion is to leave things as [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] left it. I suspect Kazim and I were wrong to get everything deleted, the next phase in this argument could easily be that the authors of deleted material, (not by Feredir and me) will complain. Then the dispute could escalate with Jdog making criticisms all round. At least let's leave things as they are for a week or so to give cooling off time and to give the senior administrators time to think and discuss the issue. As I said I'm not keen to be involved further. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 16:35, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::::: (Apologies for continuing this on your talk page, but...) FWIW, I don't consider myself a "senior administrator". The only valid distinction, IMO, is between [[Special:Listusers/sysop|regular admins and bureaucrats]]. I don't know who [[User:EnthusOcn|EnthusOcn]] is, but the other 3 bureaucrats are the ones who founded the wiki in the first place, so they should decide what they want to do with it. I would point out, however, that four articles have been "featured" on the [[Main Page]] for years now, all point-by-point refutations of individual apologetical works. Are we not doing that anymore? This should be discussed on-wiki somewhere; I suggest [[Iron Chariots Wiki talk:Editing guidelines#What are we doing here?]], since this obviously has implications for what we want to say on that project page. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 17:54, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::::: More discussion was added at the Editing Guidelines talk page. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:02, 23 November 2011 (CST)

User talk:Proxima Centauri

2011-12-05T10:51:59Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Praise and Glory to the FSM! */

I’m lonely here as nobody has spoken to me yet. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:03, 24 July 2009 (CDT)
:Awww. There, there. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:46, 31 July 2009 (CDT)
::<irony>Thanks for being so understanding. </irony> [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:04, 1 August 2009 (CDT)
:Glad to see there are some folks who actually use the chat functions on these wiki pages. I mostly just edit, but I guess I'll have to check them. Off hand, you wouldn't happen to know if there's any way to encode formal logic on this page, would you? The standard wiki form doesn't work. - JStein (8:49, 9/13/2011)

I see you started a WOTM program review. *Big hugs* I have made multiple requests for help on RW, YouTube, and [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trolling_With_Logic TWL]. You are the first person to give a helping hand. Thanks mate, I really appreciate it. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 15:25, 6 October 2011 (CDT)

==Multiverse==
Any chance that we could not use the '''Multiverse''' "theory" here? It's currently an untestable claim that has no evidence to support it, not a scientific theory. I certainly agree that it's ''possible'', but until we have a way of detecting other universes, it's an irrational claim and not suitable for use in counter-apologetics. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 09:36, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

:[http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Kalam&curid=2213&diff=18138&oldid=18111&rcid=17057 I think the mustiverse theory prevents God being proved]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 11:10, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

::It does no such thing. The multiverse ''concept'' (please provide scientific evidence for the claim or stop calling it a theory) simply moves the problem up one level; a theist just has to claim that "God caused the multiverse to exist" and you're back where you started, plus you've added another unprovable claim to the mix. If anything, the concept of parallel universes could potentially be used to explain the conflicts between omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 20:54, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

I’ve taken it out as the issue is not worth so much trouble and I risk getting behind with refuting [[Ray Comfort]]. In my opinion the [[wikipedia:Multiverse|Muliverse]] is valid against [[Kalam]] because Kalam explicitly states, “Everything that '''starts to exist''' needs a cause and the Multiverse didn’t necessarily , '''start to exist'''. I agree the Multiverse does not work against general first cause arguments. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:35, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

==Ray Comfort==
Ray Comfort is, as they say on the Non-Prophets, an ASSHAT (anyone playing the Non-Prophets drinking game?). Pretend i said all this in an Australian pirate accent so it counts as six drinks if you are. Anyway, lets all unite against creationist asshats. I'm just doing some minor editing, correcting some spelling mistakes, maybe adding a sentence or two when needed. Does anyone else visit this site, or are the fundie asshats trying to get rid of us?
SOMEONE TELL ME HOW TO USE THE CHAT, i just did this by clicking edit on your page, then inserted my username how everyone else's was. [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]] 0334, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

You can find out how active the site is by [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges Clicking this link], alternatively you can click Recent changes 3 lines below the picture of the chariot and horses near the top left hand side of the page. To talk a user you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the Userpage and to talk about an article you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the article.

This is an atheist website and Christians can’t stop us being ungodly here, see [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Neutral point of view]]. [[User:Feredir28|Feredir28]] has been working very hard helping refute [[Ray Comfort]] as have others. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:04, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

Okay, thanks. You're on here too much, all the edits I see are from me, you, and two other people. Kazim and Sans Deity need to start "plugging" this site on the Non-Prophets and the Atheist Experience more, we need more people! [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

== Spam/vandalism ==

Lol, when I tried saving one of those marked as spam, I was told you had just deleted it. <impolite>Don't you have a life either?</impolite>

Is there no way we can upgrade the MediaWiki software? The latest version should make user-management, and thus spam-prevention, within easier reach. Sure, it will add some bureaucracy to new user creation, but won't it be worth it?

:You could try asking, [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]], he's the site owner. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:24, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

::I see he's probably too busy. Especially as an upgrade, apparently ANY upgrade beyond the current version, would require an upgrade of PHP. Which looks like it would involve the ISP...
::Something tells me that the most effective solution would be to find a new ISP, export and import, and then transfer the domain name to the new site. All of course without stealing the domain from Sans Deity.
::Isn't this interesting? I didn't even know there was a forum. How much more work would that involve?
::I can feel myself giving up here. --[[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 05:53, 9 October 2011 (CDT)
Bother... I think I'll leave you to it. I'll stick to fixing typos... --[[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 02:31, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

::: He's going to get to it after wedding season. Be patient please, no coup is required. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:05, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

I think the computer must have delayed before you found out I'd deleted that stuff. While I'm checking regularly I don't need delete templates but if ever I can't check for any reason delete templates will be very useful. Any admin who gets to delete just needs to go to [[:Category:Pages for deletion]] and find a bunch of articles all together ready to delete. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 10:12, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

== Clean up ==

I rolled back some changes and I don't have time to monitor and fix everything. I've been getting complaints about some regulars adding sloppy speculation and changing the site from informative to a personal, sloppy, speculative bitch-slapping of apologists. Dig through your changes....and wherever you've added unfounded accusations, speculations or snide comments - remove them. I'm going to check back after the wedding and if there aren't improvements, I'll be locking the site down, upgrading it and changing policies and permissions. This isn't a place to talk shit about apologists or post things that might cause unnecessary problems. You CANNOT simply toss around accusations about financial motivations - that leads to legal problems, and I'd prefer if people didn't post sloppy arguments. [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 01:22, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

:First, my thanks to Proxima about AtheistWiki, but before we go there mate, we have work to do. I will go through all my material on Ray Comfort - that includes the programs, books, and main page. Nobody here meant harm, but we will not be divide over this issue and continue to work together. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:03, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

I haven’t got time to go through your edits and I’m going to bed soon, I’ve had an infection recently. On this wiki are writers who’ve done really good hard hitting stuff about the [[Problem of evil]] and other difficult topics. '''Please write nothing here that could offend those writers or which those writers may not like.''' You can write snark and offensive stuff at RationalWiki or [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki], '''just don’t break any libel laws'''. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 13:42, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
*:I appreciate the fixes. Please take a moment to check out the newly added "types of pages" section under [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Editing guidelines]] for a little more guidance in how pages ought to look. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 18:16, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

== Atheist groups in ... ==

I suggest merging all those '''[[Special:Deadendpages|Atheist groups in some-country-or-state]]''' pages into one '''List of atheist groups''' page, organised, naturally, by continent, country and state. The current state of myriad miniature "articles" seems... silly.

May I? [[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 07:02, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

Please ask [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] or [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]], both know more about this wiki than I do. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 09:36, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

:Yes please. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:04, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

==Praise and Glory to the FSM!==
What do you think of the edit I did on the page about the FSM? We need a [[War on Christmas]] page, but I'm going to sleep, its 3 Am(pacific time)[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I like it but what the established administrators like counts for more here than what I like. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 06:17, 7 November 2011 (CST)

PLEASE CHECK MY NEW PAGE ON RICK PERRY. It needs more info, linked to my sources in the page, sorry i dont have time to look at my sources more and post more info, it is DAMNED important this gets up and running, as it might prevent another crazy religious president like Bush. One was enough. [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I have no problem about the article on [[Rick Perry]] but please check with [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] as he is the site owner. I suggest writing mainly material demonstrating that Perry’s position on religion is irrational as this wiki is primarily about countering irrational religion. I suggest checking the sources in the RationalWiki article for information but here you should write respectfully. Googling [http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=rick%20perry%2Breligious%20nut&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f9736ba80af0173&biw=1198&bih=541&pf=p&pdl=3000 rick perry+religious nut] will get you information that will sometimes need rewriting respectfully. Googling [http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=rick+perry%2Breligious%2Birrational&pbx=1&oq=rick+perry%2Breligious%2Birrational&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=44304l47432l0l50604l11l11l0l0l0l0l178l1412l3.8l11l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f9736ba80af0173&biw=1198&bih=541 rick perry+religious+irrational] will get information that won’t need rewording respectfully so often. I also suggest that you look for websites where political material is expected.

I’m from the UK and I don’t fully understand American politics, I personally fear Mitt Romney because he stands the biggest chance of defeating Obama as far as I know. [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Mitt_Romney Mitt Romney] flip flops so much nobody knows what he would do as president. RationalWiki accepts articles about all relevant issues over the [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/2012_U.S._Presidential_Election 2012 U.S. Presidential Election] and has articles about most of the [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/2012_U.S._Presidential_Election#Republican_Party possible Republican runners], you can register there and add to articles or write new ones but not all the editors are polite or well behaved. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

I'm from Canada (different time zones suck) and i dont think if i put the bit about the N.A.R. by itself it would really do anything......however, if it is linked to rick perry, then people will notice (hopefully....). i know sans deity is the site owner, i joined this site because i heard about it from some old episodes of the non prophets. My source is legitimate, as it is from national public radio, and it seems unbiased. i dunno, just put it up there because it seems to have some relevance to me.what's your personal opinion of those N.A.R. folks?
anyways, let me know if you need help deleting spam, i have some free time on my hands. Right now, i think this website is a damn good reference, dont you agree? [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I don't need help deleting spam as only administrators can delete. I don't know much about the N.A.R. Do you mean the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation New Apostolic Reformation]? I know no more about them than what's in the Wikipedia article. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

Yes, thats what i meant, the youtube video i linked is part of a series by that user that goes into detail about their beliefs (the npr article i posted,[http://www.npr.org/2011/08/24/139781021/the-evangelicals-engaged-in-spiritual-warfare Link] was great too, but less in detail and colorful, as well as being worth less laughs) , and how bat shit crazy they are. for the love of spaghetti, they think oprah is the freakin antichrist! they should cover that crap on the [[Non-Prophets]], it would get so many laughs! i mean, they are the new spanish inquisition without the torture and censorship (at the moment), and they are trying to gain popularity? thats like another hitler staging rock concerts![[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

So, whats religion like in the U.K.?[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

We have some street corner evangelists but most people in Britain are apathetic about religion or skeptical. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:07, 11 November 2011 (CST)

Just like here. I know two and only two christian people under 20. ahhh religion, die already.
Been lotsa spam lately huh?
[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I fear the spam will continue till one of the top administrators gets as [[Wikipedia:CAPTCHA|CAPTCHA]]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:11, 13 November 2011 (CST)

Meh, it just shows how morally "superior" theists are.[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]
How's my favorite heathen doing? I've been enjoying the new video game that just came out, Call of Duty, Modern Warfare 3. Do anything interesting? [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

Well, what have I been doing? [http://atheism.wikia.com/index.php?title=Special:RecentChanges&limit=100 I’ve written any amount of stuff about Ray Comfort and other topics at Atheism Wiki]. I watched <s>mindless</s> inspiring video material by Ray Comfort so I could comment effectively.

I went for walks in local parks so I would get general exercise and wouldn’t just exercise my typing fingers. I read ordinary books and newspapers in cafes and libraries etc so I would spend some time away from my flat and my computer. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:01, 5 December 2011 (CST)
Sounds fun, I'm reading stuff on the website of the FSM, the hate mail is quite interesting. You play any video games (I need to further the stereotype of all atheists being nerds!!)?? I've been watching the latest American election stuffs, and i must say, the Republicans are really, really, really, really, really, realllllyyyy stupid this year. [[Rick Perry]], Michele Bachman, and Sarah Palin especially. Oh and another guy, Mick Romney, put out an Obama smear ad, where he quoted Obama quoting someone else.... I swear, they are TRYING to lose. [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

== Proposal for Ray Comfort articles ==

Hi Proxima,

I'd like to make a modest proposal regarding the large amount of work you've done on all of Ray Comfort's works. I'm still having the feeling that you're seeing Iron Chariots as a private sandbox to go after Comfort's entire body of work, and the articles you're generating are coming in too fast for anybody to review them, or perhaps even read them. They don't seem to be strongly cohesive integrated with the rest of the site, the main focus of which is to be a resource for specific arguments with organized responses. However, here's my alternate suggestion.

A more focused website that is centered around your special interest in Ray would probably be a very useful and more appropriate resource. Call it whatever you want, make it as polemic and opinionated as you want. Make it the official "I Hate Ray Comfort" site if you like. Heck, "ihateraycomfort.com" is available, and I'm sure you could come up with other variations that suit your intentions. You seem like somebody who knows how to set up a website, but if not I'd be happy to recommend resources for getting started, and if necessary, help migrate those articles to HTML pages.

I'd be more than happy to have one main article about Ray Comfort which, in addition to providing short explanations and links to his common arguments, also links to your site. You could include a paragraph-long blurb in the links section saying how thorough and extensive it is, and you would have full creative control over it without my (I'm sure) annoying meddling.

What do you say? --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 08:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Plus, you'd avoid my criticism when I actually do read one or two of the RC articles here. Thanks for removing the gay stereotyping from the "convert your family!" WotM episode review, though. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 10:32, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir did most of the work, I don't want to remove what he wrote. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 12:03, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:Maybe you could start something jointly? --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 12:26, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Thank you for inviting me to this discussion. My thoughts on Kazim's idea are mixed. When I first arrived on IronChariots, I was aware that it was used to confront specific theistic arguments, but when I saw that IC had only 4 review/critiques of Ray's programs and barely a paragraph for one of his books, I thought perhaps there was a little more to IC. At the time, I thought the least I could do was muster some time and man-power to expand IC operations. Now, while I am sure my time and hard work is much appreciated, the thought of having a website is intriguing but an unsure feeling keeps creeping around me.

Proxima, would it be more suiting if we moved all our work (both yours and mine) to Atheism.wiki or would an independent website created by the both of us be more suiting? If the conclusion would be a website, the next difficult part is to make something "uniqueness" I guess. Several rationalist websites confront Ray Comfort (such as forums like WeAreSMRT and the Rational Response Squad) but none of them give a "walk through" of Ray's materials, pointing out and documenting every flaw in Ray's material. For my own two cents: if I had my own website confronting creationists, it would not focus entirely on Ray Comfort. But before I go any further into that, we must first decide if a website would be the best option, and if it would be the case, I would do what I can to contribute. If not, we will work things out. What say you? [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:22, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:It seems that Proxima has already moved a lot of the material I always wished to preserve the most to Atheism.wikia, for which I am most grateful (and soon I will be a user to contribute more). The question of the website still remains open, where Proxima and I (and possibly more) can both decide how to format whatever as we see fit. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:35, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Now that Wolf's spoken up, I feel that there's a misinterpretation of "refuting specific theistic arguments". Ray doesn't make new theistic arguments in each of his works, he simply repeats the same arguments over and over (sometimes with minor variations). Once you've made pages for argument from design, personal revelation, and fear of hell, then made appropriate redirects to them (banana argument to argument from design, for example), you've got his entire body of work almost completely refuted. Having a page about him where it lists the specific arguments he makes and links to pages about those arguments is a good thing. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

For several years [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki] has stagnated because I thought working to build up this site and RationalWiki would help the cause more. Recently I decided working more on Atheism Wiki is worthwhile because this wiki caters for intellectuals and RationalWiki is becoming steadily more intellectual. Nobody is catering for less intellectual types like high school students with religious doubts.

This is your website, it’s your choice whether you keep the Way of the Master Series or not. I’m sorry that you want to delete it because Google ranks it very high on the first page. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:08, 15 November 2011 (CST)

It’s up to you, Feredir if you want to do your own blog, I’m more experienced with wikis but learning how to do a blog could be interesting. I plan to work hard on refuting Ray Comfort on Atheism Wiki for 3 reasons.
#I already know how to work with wikis.
#Transferring work from one wiki to another is quick and relatively little needs doing to refit the material.
#On a wiki there is always the chance other people with bad experience of Ray Comfort will join the wiki and help us. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:17, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:I agree with you Proxima regarding working on a wiki. I too would prefer to work on a wiki since I already know how to do it. I already have my own blog, but I prefer working on wikis like RationalWiki, and info travels faster I think that way since anyone can take the time to contribute and spread the word. I like the sense of teamwork, which is why I helped create [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trolling_With_Logic TWL] [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 14:30, 15 November 2011 (CST)

An unsure feeling keeps creeping around me too, I’m sure together we can make material on Atheism Wiki presentable, how long will it take before Google picks it up?

I agree we should deal with other fundamentalists as well as Ray Comfort. Feredir lives relatively near to Ray Comfort and has first-hand experience of his influence. So I thought, “OK, let’s spend six months or so refuting Ray Comfort, when we’ve dealt with Ray and Kirk exhaustively we can consider doing something else." My 2 cents are that the first priority should be to get [[The Way of the Master]] complete because red links in the template look bad. Once that’s completed, we can start work debunking other fundamentalists. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:What term are you googling to see ICW on the first page? The only one I saw when I just tried a few was "Ray Comfort", at the bottom. I think you underestimate people who have religious doubts and do them a disservice by thinking of them as "less intellectual", which would help explain why your approach to refuting RC's work is so odd. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

::I've already pointed out several times that Google collects data on individual users and tailors their results to what it thinks you want to see. Just because you see it first in the results doesn't mean that anyone else does. I don't even see it on the first page. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 16:49, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Another thing I want to check on is, did you create the atheism wikia page? If not, have you checked with the creators in advance to see if it fits their style guidelines? I'd hate for you to waste a bunch of additional work. That's one reason why I suggested that a personal web page (neither a wiki nor a blog, but a privately maintained and organized collection of articles) might be the way you want to go. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 16:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir and I both think people who've viewed a WOTM video should be able to find a refutation of that video. Also people who want to know what is in a WOTM video without watching it should be able to find the information. It's not up to you what we do on our own website. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 15:02, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:I'm not telling you what to do on your own website (why are you continuing to discuss it on this website, anyway? Do you or Feredir not have e-mail?), we crossposted because you write your replies over multiple posts instead of making use of the "show preview" button. My reply was aimed at your claims that the WotM refutations cater to "less intellectual" people, because if you're doing this with the idea that you're an intellectual and that you're writing for the benefit of people of lesser intelligence, you're just turning atheism into a form of "white man's burden" and failing at the very goal you're trying to achieve by doing all these refutations in the first place. Your work is getting bumped from RationalWiki and here because you refuse to see that. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 17:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

== Deletions and restorations ==
I understand (from the thread above) that there have been problems with the Ray Comfort related articles lately, but [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=Proxima+Centauri&page= why have you deleted articles] that had extensive content ''before'' you even edited them? For example, you deleted (and I just restored) [[The Beauty of a Broken Spirit—Atheism (Way of the Master)]], [[The Firefighter (Way of the Master)]], and even [[Template:Wayofthemaster]], all of which were originally created and heavily edited by the founders of this wiki (and other administrators). In other words, those articles were not "yours to delete". I've restored all of them to their respective states before you and/or [[User:Feredir28|Feredir28]] first edited them (since I assume your intention was to remove your and his contributions, and you just got a bit sloppy doing that). You also deleted [[The Satanic Influence (Way of the Master)]], which neither of you ever edited in the first place. A quick glance through the deleted content didn't reveal anything inappropriate, so I've restored that article, too. I didn't restore any articles you or Feredir28 created. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 05:21, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:OK [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 08:13, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::Hi Dcljr, please check the bottom of the talk page on Ray Comfort. I requested that the reorganization happen, my preference is to cut down on / relocate the articles specifically addressing individual apologists' bodies of work. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:08, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::: Hmm. I [[Talk:Ray Comfort|still don't see]] where you suggested that all the articles be deleted, only particular contributions to them. Feel free to re-delete the articles, if you feel that's best. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 14:00, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::: I think you, Kazim and the other senior administrators should decide among yourselves what to do. I'm tired of all this. I'm tired of Jdog regularly making us angrier than we were before we read his comments. I'm tired of weeks of hard work followed by being told off by Kazim, Jdog and others. I'm tired of senior administrators leaving the wiki alone for long periods without saying what they want, then blaming Feredir and me when things are not their liking. That's the one and only time so far that I can remember when I've agreed with Jdog over anything important.

:::: I've copied what matters to Feredir and me to [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki] and it is up to you what you do here. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 15:18, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::: I haven't had time to consider this but my first suggestion is to leave things as [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] left it. I suspect Kazim and I were wrong to get everything deleted, the next phase in this argument could easily be that the authors of deleted material, (not by Feredir and me) will complain. Then the dispute could escalate with Jdog making criticisms all round. At least let's leave things as they are for a week or so to give cooling off time and to give the senior administrators time to think and discuss the issue. As I said I'm not keen to be involved further. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 16:35, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::::: (Apologies for continuing this on your talk page, but...) FWIW, I don't consider myself a "senior administrator". The only valid distinction, IMO, is between [[Special:Listusers/sysop|regular admins and bureaucrats]]. I don't know who [[User:EnthusOcn|EnthusOcn]] is, but the other 3 bureaucrats are the ones who founded the wiki in the first place, so they should decide what they want to do with it. I would point out, however, that four articles have been "featured" on the [[Main Page]] for years now, all point-by-point refutations of individual apologetical works. Are we not doing that anymore? This should be discussed on-wiki somewhere; I suggest [[Iron Chariots Wiki talk:Editing guidelines#What are we doing here?]], since this obviously has implications for what we want to say on that project page. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 17:54, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::::: More discussion was added at the Editing Guidelines talk page. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:02, 23 November 2011 (CST)

User talk:Kazim

2011-12-05T04:11:50Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Ray Comfort */

In the [[Special:Logs|Logs]], I see you deleted [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Searching]] on Aug 19th, saying, "''This is the second time this page has popped up as a redirect, and I don't know why''". I do. It's linked to from the [[Special:Search/fubar|Search results]] page when you do an unsuccessful search (follow last link to see example). - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 02:07, 26 August 2006 (MST)
: Actually, it shows up on [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?search=bible&fulltext=Search successful searches], too. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 02:36, 26 August 2006 (MST)

==Known issues==
Since registering a few hours ago, I've made an initial pass through the wiki (main navigation pages, special pages) looking for "obvious" problems. I've collected them at [[User:Dcljr/Sandbox]]. Basically, I wanted to give you (and [[User:Sans Deity|Matt]]) a heads-up before I go in changing everything. <w> - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 03:41, 26 August 2006 (MST)

== Spaces in URLs ==

I've replied on [[User talk:Dcljr#Wow|my talk page]]. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 03:13, 29 August 2006 (MST)

== Comment-box ==
The only extra typing which is required is "text=" (as you could just start the text section with <nowiki>'''Comment:'''</nowiki>). The old comment-box didn't format correctly in every situation (if, for example a picture or menu div or anything else exists to the right or left of it) which required me to make comment-box2 (to adjust the right margin) and might have eventually lead to comment-box3,4,5,6,7,8,9 (to adjust left margin or color or anything else). That could all be replaced with one template, so why not do it? Additionally, templates which use <nowiki>{{{1}}}</nowiki> (unnamed parameters) have additional limitations that prevent some "behind the scenes" stuff from working - unnamed parameters, for example, don't always work well when referencing one template from within another. - [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 10:44, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

: Actually, using "text=" AND typing the extra bolded word "comment" is a lot of extra typing, especially considering that it will be repeated many times over throughout the course of an article.
: Despite the issues you raised, it seems to me that the generic box is shorter and easier for most simple text. What if I reintroduced Comment-box and made it reference Comment-box1 as a special case? Then we could still use Comment-box1 any time we need to use a picture or whatever. -- [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:14, 10 September 2006 (CDT)
:: I guess that would be ok, the problem is that if people add pictures or sidebars later, without properly understanding the templates it's going to be a bit of work for them to figure out that the need to completely change which template is referenced. Instead of looking at the template in use and simply changing/adding a parameter, they now have to completely switch templates. I'd rather type a little extra now so that the only thing an editor would need to do is add a "width=" (or similar). I suppose it's ok to have a million templates but I just want the templates to be manageable and having one template that had a pretty solid default function while allowing optional parameters to be set. One thing we'll definitely want to do, either way, is categorize templates and make sure that they're well documented - which would include documenting all similar template.

:: Generally, I'm of the opinion that "Comment-box1" shouldn't be considered a "special case" template, it should be the default - because it's the one that doesn't suffer from the problems that "Comment-box" suffers from. But that's just me...add it if you like, I'll be typing the extra few characters. To me, it's not just about which solution requires me to type less, it's about which solution is more useful and simpler. Why learn many templates for comment boxes when you only have to learn one? Maybe we don't want every comment in a given article to have the "Comment:" preface, some should maybe be "See also:" or "Response:". Maybe we don't want them all to be the same color...if a particular comment is more important or references another article it may deserve another color. Comments where we agree with the apologist might deserve a different color than where we disagree or where their claims represent immoral beliefs. - [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 20:33, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

== Doubting Thomas and Kirk Cameron? ==

I don't understand how the "[[I used to be an atheist]]" argument has precedent in [[Doubting Thomas]] (see [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=I_used_to_be_an_atheist&curid=1378&diff=7905&oldid=6269&rcid=6554 this change]). Could you please spell it out? --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 10:34, 15 December 2007 (CST)
:Expanded now; see article. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 18:40, 15 December 2007 (CST)

== citations ==

Are website citations and references possible on this wiki? I have yet to find a page that uses them, so I Decided it wouldn't be a bad idea to ask.
--[[User:Enshoku|Enshoku]] 21:12, 29 April 2008 (CDT)
:I think I know what you're talking about, but you might want to check with dcljr. He's kind of our resident Wiki technician.
--[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 06:50, 30 April 2008 (CDT)
::Will ask, thanks for the help!
--[[User:Enshoku|Enshoku]] 17:25, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

== Vandal ==

Watch for a Vandal calling himself Yerranos. He's a fundy Christian doing secular Wikis. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 13:32, 21 June 2008 (CDT)

:Thanks for the tip. I have to say I misread your message the first time, and I went through your own recent edits saying to myself, "Hey, Proxima Centauri doesn't sound so much like a vandal..." :) --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 10:31, 22 June 2008 (CDT)

Yeah, I've been meaning to talk to you about this. How do you make sure no one is vandalizing the wiki? What if some Christian like Yerranos starts deleting articles. Will our work be wasted?--[[User:Wissam hemadeh|wissam hemadeh]] 15:18, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

== Donations ==

Hello, Russell

I've been hoping you guys would get an automated donation system going by now, but decided to press the issue. I demand that you give me a way to send money to this project!

Hmm, let's see. I think there's supposed to be something I do at the end of a wiki edit. Maybe this is it. [[User:Beriukay|Beriukay]] 07:41, 13 May 2009 (CDT)

: Hi Beriukay, thanks for your interest. If you want to donate, I suggest you sent it to the Atheist Community of Austin and mark your donation as earmarked for Iron Chariots. You can donate at [http://atheist-community.org/donate/ this link].

:: Thanks Kazim. That was painless. [[User:Beriukay|Beriukay]]

== Short URL ==

You might've already considered it, or maybe even never thought about it, but having index.php?title= in the sites URLs looks yucky, unprofessional, and somewhat annoying if manually typing out an address. It's relatively easy to get rid of the index.php?title= part so it's like it is on Wikipedia. Instructions can be found [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Short_URL#Setup_steps here] - [[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 07:26, 17 June 2009 (CDT)

== Wiki Date / Time is off ==

The wiki's clock seems to be off by more than a week.... [[User:Jwissick|Jwissick]] 01:38, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

== A suggestion ==

I've been doing some research and found some huge websites related to religious issues. Unfortunately, Christians and Muslims dominate the web. I was thinking of doing some more group projects on this wiki, as in critiques of theistic websites, articles, books, debates, philosopgers (Craig, Plantinga, Swinburne, Behe) etc etc. I don't get the obsession with Ray Comfort- he's the dumbest person I've seen.--[[User:Wissam hemadeh|wissam hemadeh]] 15:27, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

Also, the wiki seems to have little insight on the religions themselves. What we have is great but take a look at this website for example, www.answering-islam.com >It's a Christian website which attacks Islam, and it is extraordinary.--[[User:Wissam hemadeh|wissam hemadeh]] 15:27, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

:Feel free to add them! --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 14:28, 15 April 2010 (CDT)

== Activation of LaTeX? ==

The UI for this site has a math button, but it doesn't work:

<math>\hat{H}|\psi\rangle = \frac{\partial}{\partial t} |\psi\rangle</math>

Is it possible to get this enabled? There's a basic guide here:

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Enable_TeX

I've done stuff kinda like this before; it could be time-consuming or trivial depending on what kind of server you've got set up. Just curious if this could be fixed. It's more than a little weird being on a site that talks about science and logic, and only having HTML to work with, but I know you guys are busy, so it's not a huge deal if that's all we've got.

== Christhiru is a Dick ==

I've never used wiki software before so I'm not sure if this is the right place to posit this, but every change the user Christhiru has made needs to be undone and his account needs to be banned. He basically deletes entire, valid, well formed, articles and occasionally adds a link to his sh*tty apologist blog. I have no idea how to go about undoing his many changes to the site or how to launch some kind of formal complaint, but Christhiru is a dick and he needs to be stopped ASAP.

== FF searchplugin ==

I've been trying to work out how to make an Iron Chariots searchplugin for firefox for the last few hours to no avail. Can you help me or defer to someone who could help me? I think it would also be a good idea to add an autodiscovery feature to the site just so people can 'add' the site to the search bar.

== Secularism and Xianity ==

Sorry for posting this on this talk page, but for some reason I cannot use the forum - I tried numerous times, used different names, but still it never allows me in. Anyway, Im here for some help. Over the years, I have heard from many Christians that their religion is responsible for creating many things (reason, science, democracy, morality, ect.) and I am sure we have heard some form of it once. For this, I recently created the article [[Christianity invented science]] and explained why it is wrong. I chose this one because it is growing in the conservative academia and Christian apologetic literature. However, there is just one more topic I want to address, the delusion that Christianity invented secularism. I would not bother with this unless it was no growing as well, but I see it very frequently. Anyway, I know we already have a article on separation of church and state, but I wanted to know if I should create an entirely new article refuting the stance that secularism is a Christian idea and separation of church and state was invented to keep government out of religion and not the other way around. What should I do? [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 15:35, 12 September 2011 (CDT)

:You probably should have read the instructions in the [http://forum.ironchariots.org/viewtopic.php?t=278 access request forum]. Anyway, I've added Feredir28 to the member group, I'm assuming that's you. [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 12:52, 13 September 2011 (CDT)

::Thank you, I shall move this topic to the forum. Pardons for not noticing that page. Yes, I'm Feredir. Again, thank you. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 14:08, 13 September 2011 (CDT)

== Ray Comfort ==

Have you plans to write a refutation of Ray Comfort’s views? [[Talk:Ray Comfort#"Favorite arguments" section|Two users are concerned]]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:08, 4 November 2011 (CDT)

Yeah, have there been any more advances on that? Oh and Kazim? we need another plug for iron chariots on the Non-Prophets, we havent had one FOREVER!....and congrats on the wedding!I made a [[Rick Perry]] page,and it has something on it about a group called the New Apostolic Reformation you should read...the youtube video I linked to summarizing it was rather good, it would be humorous on the show.....
[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

:I've already clearly expressed what I'd like the Ray Comfort page to look like on the associated talk page, and it doesn't include extensive argumentation -- that's for pages about arguments. I will try to remember to plug IC on Saturday, and I'll also be talking with Matt about what needs to happen next with software upgrades and anti-spam measures. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 17:16, 18 November 2011 (CST)

okay, thanks for the update. [[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

If you need someone to help delete spam, I can do some of that every once in a while...(i have no life)

[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

User talk:Proxima Centauri

2011-12-05T04:08:37Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Praise and Glory to the FSM! */

I’m lonely here as nobody has spoken to me yet. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:03, 24 July 2009 (CDT)
:Awww. There, there. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:46, 31 July 2009 (CDT)
::<irony>Thanks for being so understanding. </irony> [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:04, 1 August 2009 (CDT)
:Glad to see there are some folks who actually use the chat functions on these wiki pages. I mostly just edit, but I guess I'll have to check them. Off hand, you wouldn't happen to know if there's any way to encode formal logic on this page, would you? The standard wiki form doesn't work. - JStein (8:49, 9/13/2011)

I see you started a WOTM program review. *Big hugs* I have made multiple requests for help on RW, YouTube, and [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trolling_With_Logic TWL]. You are the first person to give a helping hand. Thanks mate, I really appreciate it. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 15:25, 6 October 2011 (CDT)

==Multiverse==
Any chance that we could not use the '''Multiverse''' "theory" here? It's currently an untestable claim that has no evidence to support it, not a scientific theory. I certainly agree that it's ''possible'', but until we have a way of detecting other universes, it's an irrational claim and not suitable for use in counter-apologetics. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 09:36, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

:[http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Kalam&curid=2213&diff=18138&oldid=18111&rcid=17057 I think the mustiverse theory prevents God being proved]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 11:10, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

::It does no such thing. The multiverse ''concept'' (please provide scientific evidence for the claim or stop calling it a theory) simply moves the problem up one level; a theist just has to claim that "God caused the multiverse to exist" and you're back where you started, plus you've added another unprovable claim to the mix. If anything, the concept of parallel universes could potentially be used to explain the conflicts between omniscience, omnipotence, and omnibenevolence. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 20:54, 7 October 2011 (CDT)

I’ve taken it out as the issue is not worth so much trouble and I risk getting behind with refuting [[Ray Comfort]]. In my opinion the [[wikipedia:Multiverse|Muliverse]] is valid against [[Kalam]] because Kalam explicitly states, “Everything that '''starts to exist''' needs a cause and the Multiverse didn’t necessarily , '''start to exist'''. I agree the Multiverse does not work against general first cause arguments. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:35, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

==Ray Comfort==
Ray Comfort is, as they say on the Non-Prophets, an ASSHAT (anyone playing the Non-Prophets drinking game?). Pretend i said all this in an Australian pirate accent so it counts as six drinks if you are. Anyway, lets all unite against creationist asshats. I'm just doing some minor editing, correcting some spelling mistakes, maybe adding a sentence or two when needed. Does anyone else visit this site, or are the fundie asshats trying to get rid of us?
SOMEONE TELL ME HOW TO USE THE CHAT, i just did this by clicking edit on your page, then inserted my username how everyone else's was. [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]] 0334, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

You can find out how active the site is by [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges Clicking this link], alternatively you can click Recent changes 3 lines below the picture of the chariot and horses near the top left hand side of the page. To talk a user you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the Userpage and to talk about an article you click on the icon saying, “Discussion” in the top left of the article.

This is an atheist website and Christians can’t stop us being ungodly here, see [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Neutral point of view]]. [[User:Feredir28|Feredir28]] has been working very hard helping refute [[Ray Comfort]] as have others. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 07:04, 30 October 2011 (CDT)

Okay, thanks. You're on here too much, all the edits I see are from me, you, and two other people. Kazim and Sans Deity need to start "plugging" this site on the Non-Prophets and the Atheist Experience more, we need more people! [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

== Spam/vandalism ==

Lol, when I tried saving one of those marked as spam, I was told you had just deleted it. <impolite>Don't you have a life either?</impolite>

Is there no way we can upgrade the MediaWiki software? The latest version should make user-management, and thus spam-prevention, within easier reach. Sure, it will add some bureaucracy to new user creation, but won't it be worth it?

:You could try asking, [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]], he's the site owner. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 05:24, 8 October 2011 (CDT)

::I see he's probably too busy. Especially as an upgrade, apparently ANY upgrade beyond the current version, would require an upgrade of PHP. Which looks like it would involve the ISP...
::Something tells me that the most effective solution would be to find a new ISP, export and import, and then transfer the domain name to the new site. All of course without stealing the domain from Sans Deity.
::Isn't this interesting? I didn't even know there was a forum. How much more work would that involve?
::I can feel myself giving up here. --[[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 05:53, 9 October 2011 (CDT)
Bother... I think I'll leave you to it. I'll stick to fixing typos... --[[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 02:31, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

::: He's going to get to it after wedding season. Be patient please, no coup is required. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:05, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

I think the computer must have delayed before you found out I'd deleted that stuff. While I'm checking regularly I don't need delete templates but if ever I can't check for any reason delete templates will be very useful. Any admin who gets to delete just needs to go to [[:Category:Pages for deletion]] and find a bunch of articles all together ready to delete. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 10:12, 10 October 2011 (CDT)

== Clean up ==

I rolled back some changes and I don't have time to monitor and fix everything. I've been getting complaints about some regulars adding sloppy speculation and changing the site from informative to a personal, sloppy, speculative bitch-slapping of apologists. Dig through your changes....and wherever you've added unfounded accusations, speculations or snide comments - remove them. I'm going to check back after the wedding and if there aren't improvements, I'll be locking the site down, upgrading it and changing policies and permissions. This isn't a place to talk shit about apologists or post things that might cause unnecessary problems. You CANNOT simply toss around accusations about financial motivations - that leads to legal problems, and I'd prefer if people didn't post sloppy arguments. [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 01:22, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

:First, my thanks to Proxima about AtheistWiki, but before we go there mate, we have work to do. I will go through all my material on Ray Comfort - that includes the programs, books, and main page. Nobody here meant harm, but we will not be divide over this issue and continue to work together. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:03, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

I haven’t got time to go through your edits and I’m going to bed soon, I’ve had an infection recently. On this wiki are writers who’ve done really good hard hitting stuff about the [[Problem of evil]] and other difficult topics. '''Please write nothing here that could offend those writers or which those writers may not like.''' You can write snark and offensive stuff at RationalWiki or [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki], '''just don’t break any libel laws'''. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 13:42, 15 October 2011 (CDT)
*:I appreciate the fixes. Please take a moment to check out the newly added "types of pages" section under [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Editing guidelines]] for a little more guidance in how pages ought to look. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 18:16, 15 October 2011 (CDT)

== Atheist groups in ... ==

I suggest merging all those '''[[Special:Deadendpages|Atheist groups in some-country-or-state]]''' pages into one '''List of atheist groups''' page, organised, naturally, by continent, country and state. The current state of myriad miniature "articles" seems... silly.

May I? [[User:BronzeDome|BronzeDome]] 07:02, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

Please ask [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] or [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]], both know more about this wiki than I do. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 09:36, 18 October 2011 (CDT)

:Yes please. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:04, 31 October 2011 (CDT)

==Praise and Glory to the FSM!==
What do you think of the edit I did on the page about the FSM? We need a [[War on Christmas]] page, but I'm going to sleep, its 3 Am(pacific time)[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I like it but what the established administrators like counts for more here than what I like. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 06:17, 7 November 2011 (CST)

PLEASE CHECK MY NEW PAGE ON RICK PERRY. It needs more info, linked to my sources in the page, sorry i dont have time to look at my sources more and post more info, it is DAMNED important this gets up and running, as it might prevent another crazy religious president like Bush. One was enough. [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I have no problem about the article on [[Rick Perry]] but please check with [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] as he is the site owner. I suggest writing mainly material demonstrating that Perry’s position on religion is irrational as this wiki is primarily about countering irrational religion. I suggest checking the sources in the RationalWiki article for information but here you should write respectfully. Googling [http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=rick%20perry%2Breligious%20nut&pbx=1&oq=&aq=&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=&gs_upl=&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f9736ba80af0173&biw=1198&bih=541&pf=p&pdl=3000 rick perry+religious nut] will get you information that will sometimes need rewriting respectfully. Googling [http://www.google.co.uk/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=rick+perry%2Breligious%2Birrational&pbx=1&oq=rick+perry%2Breligious%2Birrational&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=s&gs_upl=44304l47432l0l50604l11l11l0l0l0l0l178l1412l3.8l11l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=2f9736ba80af0173&biw=1198&bih=541 rick perry+religious+irrational] will get information that won’t need rewording respectfully so often. I also suggest that you look for websites where political material is expected.

I’m from the UK and I don’t fully understand American politics, I personally fear Mitt Romney because he stands the biggest chance of defeating Obama as far as I know. [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Mitt_Romney Mitt Romney] flip flops so much nobody knows what he would do as president. RationalWiki accepts articles about all relevant issues over the [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/2012_U.S._Presidential_Election 2012 U.S. Presidential Election] and has articles about most of the [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/2012_U.S._Presidential_Election#Republican_Party possible Republican runners], you can register there and add to articles or write new ones but not all the editors are polite or well behaved. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

I'm from Canada (different time zones suck) and i dont think if i put the bit about the N.A.R. by itself it would really do anything......however, if it is linked to rick perry, then people will notice (hopefully....). i know sans deity is the site owner, i joined this site because i heard about it from some old episodes of the non prophets. My source is legitimate, as it is from national public radio, and it seems unbiased. i dunno, just put it up there because it seems to have some relevance to me.what's your personal opinion of those N.A.R. folks?
anyways, let me know if you need help deleting spam, i have some free time on my hands. Right now, i think this website is a damn good reference, dont you agree? [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I don't need help deleting spam as only administrators can delete. I don't know much about the N.A.R. Do you mean the [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Apostolic_Reformation New Apostolic Reformation]? I know no more about them than what's in the Wikipedia article. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:22, 9 November 2011 (CST)

Yes, thats what i meant, the youtube video i linked is part of a series by that user that goes into detail about their beliefs (the npr article i posted,[http://www.npr.org/2011/08/24/139781021/the-evangelicals-engaged-in-spiritual-warfare Link] was great too, but less in detail and colorful, as well as being worth less laughs) , and how bat shit crazy they are. for the love of spaghetti, they think oprah is the freakin antichrist! they should cover that crap on the [[Non-Prophets]], it would get so many laughs! i mean, they are the new spanish inquisition without the torture and censorship (at the moment), and they are trying to gain popularity? thats like another hitler staging rock concerts![[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

So, whats religion like in the U.K.?[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

We have some street corner evangelists but most people in Britain are apathetic about religion or skeptical. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 02:07, 11 November 2011 (CST)

Just like here. I know two and only two christian people under 20. ahhh religion, die already.
Been lotsa spam lately huh?
[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

I fear the spam will continue till one of the top administrators gets as [[Wikipedia:CAPTCHA|CAPTCHA]]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 01:11, 13 November 2011 (CST)

Meh, it just shows how morally "superior" theists are.[[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]
How's my favorite heathen doing? I've been enjoying the new video game that just came out, Call of Duty, Modern Warfare 3. Do anything interesting? [[User: WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

== Proposal for Ray Comfort articles ==

Hi Proxima,

I'd like to make a modest proposal regarding the large amount of work you've done on all of Ray Comfort's works. I'm still having the feeling that you're seeing Iron Chariots as a private sandbox to go after Comfort's entire body of work, and the articles you're generating are coming in too fast for anybody to review them, or perhaps even read them. They don't seem to be strongly cohesive integrated with the rest of the site, the main focus of which is to be a resource for specific arguments with organized responses. However, here's my alternate suggestion.

A more focused website that is centered around your special interest in Ray would probably be a very useful and more appropriate resource. Call it whatever you want, make it as polemic and opinionated as you want. Make it the official "I Hate Ray Comfort" site if you like. Heck, "ihateraycomfort.com" is available, and I'm sure you could come up with other variations that suit your intentions. You seem like somebody who knows how to set up a website, but if not I'd be happy to recommend resources for getting started, and if necessary, help migrate those articles to HTML pages.

I'd be more than happy to have one main article about Ray Comfort which, in addition to providing short explanations and links to his common arguments, also links to your site. You could include a paragraph-long blurb in the links section saying how thorough and extensive it is, and you would have full creative control over it without my (I'm sure) annoying meddling.

What do you say? --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 08:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Plus, you'd avoid my criticism when I actually do read one or two of the RC articles here. Thanks for removing the gay stereotyping from the "convert your family!" WotM episode review, though. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 10:32, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir did most of the work, I don't want to remove what he wrote. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 12:03, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:Maybe you could start something jointly? --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 12:26, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Thank you for inviting me to this discussion. My thoughts on Kazim's idea are mixed. When I first arrived on IronChariots, I was aware that it was used to confront specific theistic arguments, but when I saw that IC had only 4 review/critiques of Ray's programs and barely a paragraph for one of his books, I thought perhaps there was a little more to IC. At the time, I thought the least I could do was muster some time and man-power to expand IC operations. Now, while I am sure my time and hard work is much appreciated, the thought of having a website is intriguing but an unsure feeling keeps creeping around me.

Proxima, would it be more suiting if we moved all our work (both yours and mine) to Atheism.wiki or would an independent website created by the both of us be more suiting? If the conclusion would be a website, the next difficult part is to make something "uniqueness" I guess. Several rationalist websites confront Ray Comfort (such as forums like WeAreSMRT and the Rational Response Squad) but none of them give a "walk through" of Ray's materials, pointing out and documenting every flaw in Ray's material. For my own two cents: if I had my own website confronting creationists, it would not focus entirely on Ray Comfort. But before I go any further into that, we must first decide if a website would be the best option, and if it would be the case, I would do what I can to contribute. If not, we will work things out. What say you? [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:22, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:It seems that Proxima has already moved a lot of the material I always wished to preserve the most to Atheism.wikia, for which I am most grateful (and soon I will be a user to contribute more). The question of the website still remains open, where Proxima and I (and possibly more) can both decide how to format whatever as we see fit. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 13:35, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Now that Wolf's spoken up, I feel that there's a misinterpretation of "refuting specific theistic arguments". Ray doesn't make new theistic arguments in each of his works, he simply repeats the same arguments over and over (sometimes with minor variations). Once you've made pages for argument from design, personal revelation, and fear of hell, then made appropriate redirects to them (banana argument to argument from design, for example), you've got his entire body of work almost completely refuted. Having a page about him where it lists the specific arguments he makes and links to pages about those arguments is a good thing. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

For several years [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki] has stagnated because I thought working to build up this site and RationalWiki would help the cause more. Recently I decided working more on Atheism Wiki is worthwhile because this wiki caters for intellectuals and RationalWiki is becoming steadily more intellectual. Nobody is catering for less intellectual types like high school students with religious doubts.

This is your website, it’s your choice whether you keep the Way of the Master Series or not. I’m sorry that you want to delete it because Google ranks it very high on the first page. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:08, 15 November 2011 (CST)

It’s up to you, Feredir if you want to do your own blog, I’m more experienced with wikis but learning how to do a blog could be interesting. I plan to work hard on refuting Ray Comfort on Atheism Wiki for 3 reasons.
#I already know how to work with wikis.
#Transferring work from one wiki to another is quick and relatively little needs doing to refit the material.
#On a wiki there is always the chance other people with bad experience of Ray Comfort will join the wiki and help us. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:17, 15 November 2011 (CST)
:I agree with you Proxima regarding working on a wiki. I too would prefer to work on a wiki since I already know how to do it. I already have my own blog, but I prefer working on wikis like RationalWiki, and info travels faster I think that way since anyone can take the time to contribute and spread the word. I like the sense of teamwork, which is why I helped create [http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Trolling_With_Logic TWL] [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 14:30, 15 November 2011 (CST)

An unsure feeling keeps creeping around me too, I’m sure together we can make material on Atheism Wiki presentable, how long will it take before Google picks it up?

I agree we should deal with other fundamentalists as well as Ray Comfort. Feredir lives relatively near to Ray Comfort and has first-hand experience of his influence. So I thought, “OK, let’s spend six months or so refuting Ray Comfort, when we’ve dealt with Ray and Kirk exhaustively we can consider doing something else." My 2 cents are that the first priority should be to get [[The Way of the Master]] complete because red links in the template look bad. Once that’s completed, we can start work debunking other fundamentalists. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 14:41, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:What term are you googling to see ICW on the first page? The only one I saw when I just tried a few was "Ray Comfort", at the bottom. I think you underestimate people who have religious doubts and do them a disservice by thinking of them as "less intellectual", which would help explain why your approach to refuting RC's work is so odd. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 14:58, 15 November 2011 (CST)

::I've already pointed out several times that Google collects data on individual users and tailors their results to what it thinks you want to see. Just because you see it first in the results doesn't mean that anyone else does. I don't even see it on the first page. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 16:49, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:Another thing I want to check on is, did you create the atheism wikia page? If not, have you checked with the creators in advance to see if it fits their style guidelines? I'd hate for you to waste a bunch of additional work. That's one reason why I suggested that a personal web page (neither a wiki nor a blog, but a privately maintained and organized collection of articles) might be the way you want to go. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 16:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

Feredir and I both think people who've viewed a WOTM video should be able to find a refutation of that video. Also people who want to know what is in a WOTM video without watching it should be able to find the information. It's not up to you what we do on our own website. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 15:02, 15 November 2011 (CST)

:I'm not telling you what to do on your own website (why are you continuing to discuss it on this website, anyway? Do you or Feredir not have e-mail?), we crossposted because you write your replies over multiple posts instead of making use of the "show preview" button. My reply was aimed at your claims that the WotM refutations cater to "less intellectual" people, because if you're doing this with the idea that you're an intellectual and that you're writing for the benefit of people of lesser intelligence, you're just turning atheism into a form of "white man's burden" and failing at the very goal you're trying to achieve by doing all these refutations in the first place. Your work is getting bumped from RationalWiki and here because you refuse to see that. [[User:Jdog|Jdog]] 17:54, 15 November 2011 (CST)

== Deletions and restorations ==
I understand (from the thread above) that there have been problems with the Ray Comfort related articles lately, but [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Special%3ALog&type=&user=Proxima+Centauri&page= why have you deleted articles] that had extensive content ''before'' you even edited them? For example, you deleted (and I just restored) [[The Beauty of a Broken Spirit—Atheism (Way of the Master)]], [[The Firefighter (Way of the Master)]], and even [[Template:Wayofthemaster]], all of which were originally created and heavily edited by the founders of this wiki (and other administrators). In other words, those articles were not "yours to delete". I've restored all of them to their respective states before you and/or [[User:Feredir28|Feredir28]] first edited them (since I assume your intention was to remove your and his contributions, and you just got a bit sloppy doing that). You also deleted [[The Satanic Influence (Way of the Master)]], which neither of you ever edited in the first place. A quick glance through the deleted content didn't reveal anything inappropriate, so I've restored that article, too. I didn't restore any articles you or Feredir28 created. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 05:21, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:OK [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 08:13, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::Hi Dcljr, please check the bottom of the talk page on Ray Comfort. I requested that the reorganization happen, my preference is to cut down on / relocate the articles specifically addressing individual apologists' bodies of work. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:08, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::: Hmm. I [[Talk:Ray Comfort|still don't see]] where you suggested that all the articles be deleted, only particular contributions to them. Feel free to re-delete the articles, if you feel that's best. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 14:00, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::: I think you, Kazim and the other senior administrators should decide among yourselves what to do. I'm tired of all this. I'm tired of Jdog regularly making us angrier than we were before we read his comments. I'm tired of weeks of hard work followed by being told off by Kazim, Jdog and others. I'm tired of senior administrators leaving the wiki alone for long periods without saying what they want, then blaming Feredir and me when things are not their liking. That's the one and only time so far that I can remember when I've agreed with Jdog over anything important.

:::: I've copied what matters to Feredir and me to [http://atheism.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page Atheism Wiki] and it is up to you what you do here. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 15:18, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::: I haven't had time to consider this but my first suggestion is to leave things as [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] left it. I suspect Kazim and I were wrong to get everything deleted, the next phase in this argument could easily be that the authors of deleted material, (not by Feredir and me) will complain. Then the dispute could escalate with Jdog making criticisms all round. At least let's leave things as they are for a week or so to give cooling off time and to give the senior administrators time to think and discuss the issue. As I said I'm not keen to be involved further. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 16:35, 21 November 2011 (CST)

:::::: (Apologies for continuing this on your talk page, but...) FWIW, I don't consider myself a "senior administrator". The only valid distinction, IMO, is between [[Special:Listusers/sysop|regular admins and bureaucrats]]. I don't know who [[User:EnthusOcn|EnthusOcn]] is, but the other 3 bureaucrats are the ones who founded the wiki in the first place, so they should decide what they want to do with it. I would point out, however, that four articles have been "featured" on the [[Main Page]] for years now, all point-by-point refutations of individual apologetical works. Are we not doing that anymore? This should be discussed on-wiki somewhere; I suggest [[Iron Chariots Wiki talk:Editing guidelines#What are we doing here?]], since this obviously has implications for what we want to say on that project page. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 17:54, 21 November 2011 (CST)

::::::: More discussion was added at the Editing Guidelines talk page. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 15:02, 23 November 2011 (CST)

Flying Spaghetti Monster

2011-12-05T04:05:46Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Pastafarian Beliefs */

[[Image:FSM3d.gif|thumb|A typical depiction of the Flying Spaghetti Monster]]
[[Image:E-FlyingSpaghettiEmblem.gif|thumb|FSM emblem]]
[[Image:FSM W 1600x1200 th1.jpg|thumb|"What Would the Flying Spaghetti Monster Do?" — a parody of "What Would Jesus Do?" (WWJD?)]]
[[Image:Th iwant2believe1240x1024.jpg|thumb|"I want to believe", a reference to a poster in the TV series ''[[Wikipedia:The X-Files|The X-Files]]'']]
The '''Flying Spaghetti Monster''' (FSM) is a [[deity]] that either revealed itself to, or was simply invented by, Bobby Henderson as a parody of [[Intelligent design]], similar to the [[Invisible pink unicorn]]. The FSM first came to public notice when Henderson wrote an open letter to the Kansas School Board, which was considering adding Intelligent Design to the curriculum, arguing for the inclusion of the FSM by echoing many of the arguments used by Intelligent Design advocates-.

Although the FSM is particularly absurd, and there is no evidence for its existence, the same can be said of [[God]] and of the "designer" of Intelligent Design (ID). Thus, Henderson argues, if a school district chooses to teach ID in the classroom, it ought to teach about the Flying Spaghetti Monster as well so that students can hear all viewpoints and make up their own minds.

Followers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster are known as "Pastafarians" (a term modeled after "[[Rastafarian]]s").

==The deity==

The Flying Spaghetti Monster is depicted as a knot of [[Wikipedia:spaghetti|spaghetti]], flanked by two meatballs, with eyes on stalks. Such a depiction is merely a guess, as the FSM is invisible to all known forms of scientific detection. The FSM is not actually made of spaghetti, but chooses to appear as such, as he really, really likes pasta.

The FSM is said to be capable of altering measurement results to make the world appear older or otherwise different from the way it really is. Thus, a scientist may carbon-date an artifact as being 10,000 years old, but:
: [W]hat our scientist does not realize is that every time he makes a measurement, the Flying Spaghetti Monster is there changing the results with His Noodly Appendage.
This illustrates the problem of trying to do [[science]] without [[methodological naturalism]].

FSM lore includes a [[creation myth]], and a graph showing an inverse relationship between global temperature and the number of [[Wikipedia:pirate|pirate]]s in the world, which serves to illustrate the flaw in assuming that just because figures correlate they must be causally connected.

In 2006, Henderson published the first book about the FSM, ''The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster''. A second, online book, published on the internet by a multitude of authors from around the world called "The Loose Cannon"( [http://loose-canon.fsm-consortium.com/the-loose-canon/ The Loose Cannon official site]) is the Pastafarian version of the bible (which also parodies the bible).

==Pastafarian Beliefs==
Pastafarians hold very few beliefs universally, but all followers of the FSM hold that pirates are sacred, and that global warming in linked to the declining number of pirates worldwide (this parodies churches that keep making up correlations and saying they are causation, such as "less people believe in our god, so X is happening!'). Pastafarians also celibrate a holiday called "holiday" around the same time as Christians celebrate christmas, and when and how they celibrate holiday is up to them (pastafarians have thanked the Bush administration and Wal-Mart for helping to promote holiday,giving Bush a little FSM magnet to put on his limo.This parodies the [[War on Christmas]]. ).
Pastafarians believe that the universe was created by the FSM while drunk, resulting in the imperfections in the universe.Pastafarian heaven has a stripper factory that produces whatever strippers you like, and a beer volcano that produces whatever beverage you like, alcoholic or non-alcoholic.The Pastafarian hell has two levels, the "upper" layer of it being reserved for bad people, where they do manual labour, with a redemption system, where they eat cheap pasta, with poor meat in the sauce. The "Lower" level is reserved for people such as [[Hitler]], where people do the most manual of labour, such as sewage cleaning, again, with a fair redemption system.
Most Pastafarian beliefs are parodies of intelligent design, Christianity, or other things of religious significance, or promote common sense, reason and tolerance. The holy day for pastafarians is Friday.

==See also==
*[[Teach the controversy]]

==External link==
* [http://www.venganza.org/ Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster]

[[Category:Fictional deities]]
[[Category:Humorous web sites]]

Fred Phelps

2011-11-27T09:34:07Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: added a small portion that is especially amusing....

'''Fred Phelps''' is the pastor of the [[Westboro Baptist Church]] in Topeka, Kansas and the proprietor of the websites [[God Hates Fags]] and [[God Hates America]]. He is well-known for his extremist version of [[fundamentalist]] [[Christianity]]. He is extremely opposed to [[homosexuality]] and attributes most of society's problems (including 9/11, the Indian Ocean tsunami, and the death of American soldiers in Iraq) to tolerance for homosexual behavior. He thinks President Barrack Obama is the [[antichrist]], and is working with the catholic church and the devil. He advocates the death penalty for homosexuals, as commanded in the [[Bible]].
* {{bible|Leviticus 20:13}}: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them."

Phelps' congregation is largely comprised of his own family members. He generally shows little concern for getting along with anyone outside his congregation, even other Christians. As a result, mainstream Christians tend to write him off as not a [[true Christian]], even if they may agree with his condemnation of homosexuality.

==Social action==
The Westboro Baptist Church frequently attracts media attention for protesting funerals of homosexuals and deceased American soldiers. They celebrate such events as God's justice being enacted on a [[sin]]ful society, and believe that it is immoral and impious to feel sympathy for the dead and those who mourn for

User talk:Kazim

2011-11-19T02:48:20Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Ray Comfort */

User talk:Kazim

2011-11-18T02:34:59Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Ray Comfort */

User talk:Kazim

2011-11-18T02:34:30Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Ray Comfort */

In the [[Special:Logs|Logs]], I see you deleted [[Iron Chariots Wiki:Searching]] on Aug 19th, saying, "''This is the second time this page has popped up as a redirect, and I don't know why''". I do. It's linked to from the [[Special:Search/fubar|Search results]] page when you do an unsuccessful search (follow last link to see example). - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 02:07, 26 August 2006 (MST)
: Actually, it shows up on [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?search=bible&fulltext=Search successful searches], too. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 02:36, 26 August 2006 (MST)

==Known issues==
Since registering a few hours ago, I've made an initial pass through the wiki (main navigation pages, special pages) looking for "obvious" problems. I've collected them at [[User:Dcljr/Sandbox]]. Basically, I wanted to give you (and [[User:Sans Deity|Matt]]) a heads-up before I go in changing everything. <w> - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 03:41, 26 August 2006 (MST)

== Spaces in URLs ==

I've replied on [[User talk:Dcljr#Wow|my talk page]]. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 03:13, 29 August 2006 (MST)

== Comment-box ==
The only extra typing which is required is "text=" (as you could just start the text section with <nowiki>'''Comment:'''</nowiki>). The old comment-box didn't format correctly in every situation (if, for example a picture or menu div or anything else exists to the right or left of it) which required me to make comment-box2 (to adjust the right margin) and might have eventually lead to comment-box3,4,5,6,7,8,9 (to adjust left margin or color or anything else). That could all be replaced with one template, so why not do it? Additionally, templates which use <nowiki>{{{1}}}</nowiki> (unnamed parameters) have additional limitations that prevent some "behind the scenes" stuff from working - unnamed parameters, for example, don't always work well when referencing one template from within another. - [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 10:44, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

: Actually, using "text=" AND typing the extra bolded word "comment" is a lot of extra typing, especially considering that it will be repeated many times over throughout the course of an article.
: Despite the issues you raised, it seems to me that the generic box is shorter and easier for most simple text. What if I reintroduced Comment-box and made it reference Comment-box1 as a special case? Then we could still use Comment-box1 any time we need to use a picture or whatever. -- [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 11:14, 10 September 2006 (CDT)
:: I guess that would be ok, the problem is that if people add pictures or sidebars later, without properly understanding the templates it's going to be a bit of work for them to figure out that the need to completely change which template is referenced. Instead of looking at the template in use and simply changing/adding a parameter, they now have to completely switch templates. I'd rather type a little extra now so that the only thing an editor would need to do is add a "width=" (or similar). I suppose it's ok to have a million templates but I just want the templates to be manageable and having one template that had a pretty solid default function while allowing optional parameters to be set. One thing we'll definitely want to do, either way, is categorize templates and make sure that they're well documented - which would include documenting all similar template.

:: Generally, I'm of the opinion that "Comment-box1" shouldn't be considered a "special case" template, it should be the default - because it's the one that doesn't suffer from the problems that "Comment-box" suffers from. But that's just me...add it if you like, I'll be typing the extra few characters. To me, it's not just about which solution requires me to type less, it's about which solution is more useful and simpler. Why learn many templates for comment boxes when you only have to learn one? Maybe we don't want every comment in a given article to have the "Comment:" preface, some should maybe be "See also:" or "Response:". Maybe we don't want them all to be the same color...if a particular comment is more important or references another article it may deserve another color. Comments where we agree with the apologist might deserve a different color than where we disagree or where their claims represent immoral beliefs. - [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 20:33, 10 September 2006 (CDT)

== Doubting Thomas and Kirk Cameron? ==

I don't understand how the "[[I used to be an atheist]]" argument has precedent in [[Doubting Thomas]] (see [http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=I_used_to_be_an_atheist&curid=1378&diff=7905&oldid=6269&rcid=6554 this change]). Could you please spell it out? --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 10:34, 15 December 2007 (CST)
:Expanded now; see article. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 18:40, 15 December 2007 (CST)

== citations ==

Are website citations and references possible on this wiki? I have yet to find a page that uses them, so I Decided it wouldn't be a bad idea to ask.
--[[User:Enshoku|Enshoku]] 21:12, 29 April 2008 (CDT)
:I think I know what you're talking about, but you might want to check with dcljr. He's kind of our resident Wiki technician.
--[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 06:50, 30 April 2008 (CDT)
::Will ask, thanks for the help!
--[[User:Enshoku|Enshoku]] 17:25, 30 April 2008 (CDT)

== Vandal ==

Watch for a Vandal calling himself Yerranos. He's a fundy Christian doing secular Wikis. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 13:32, 21 June 2008 (CDT)

:Thanks for the tip. I have to say I misread your message the first time, and I went through your own recent edits saying to myself, "Hey, Proxima Centauri doesn't sound so much like a vandal..." :) --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 10:31, 22 June 2008 (CDT)

Yeah, I've been meaning to talk to you about this. How do you make sure no one is vandalizing the wiki? What if some Christian like Yerranos starts deleting articles. Will our work be wasted?--[[User:Wissam hemadeh|wissam hemadeh]] 15:18, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

== Donations ==

Hello, Russell

I've been hoping you guys would get an automated donation system going by now, but decided to press the issue. I demand that you give me a way to send money to this project!

Hmm, let's see. I think there's supposed to be something I do at the end of a wiki edit. Maybe this is it. [[User:Beriukay|Beriukay]] 07:41, 13 May 2009 (CDT)

: Hi Beriukay, thanks for your interest. If you want to donate, I suggest you sent it to the Atheist Community of Austin and mark your donation as earmarked for Iron Chariots. You can donate at [http://atheist-community.org/donate/ this link].

:: Thanks Kazim. That was painless. [[User:Beriukay|Beriukay]]

== Short URL ==

You might've already considered it, or maybe even never thought about it, but having index.php?title= in the sites URLs looks yucky, unprofessional, and somewhat annoying if manually typing out an address. It's relatively easy to get rid of the index.php?title= part so it's like it is on Wikipedia. Instructions can be found [http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Short_URL#Setup_steps here] - [[User:Aardvark|Aardvark]] 07:26, 17 June 2009 (CDT)

== Wiki Date / Time is off ==

The wiki's clock seems to be off by more than a week.... [[User:Jwissick|Jwissick]] 01:38, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

== A suggestion ==

I've been doing some research and found some huge websites related to religious issues. Unfortunately, Christians and Muslims dominate the web. I was thinking of doing some more group projects on this wiki, as in critiques of theistic websites, articles, books, debates, philosopgers (Craig, Plantinga, Swinburne, Behe) etc etc. I don't get the obsession with Ray Comfort- he's the dumbest person I've seen.--[[User:Wissam hemadeh|wissam hemadeh]] 15:27, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

Also, the wiki seems to have little insight on the religions themselves. What we have is great but take a look at this website for example, www.answering-islam.com >It's a Christian website which attacks Islam, and it is extraordinary.--[[User:Wissam hemadeh|wissam hemadeh]] 15:27, 5 April 2010 (CDT)

:Feel free to add them! --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 14:28, 15 April 2010 (CDT)

== Activation of LaTeX? ==

The UI for this site has a math button, but it doesn't work:

<math>\hat{H}|\psi\rangle = \frac{\partial}{\partial t} |\psi\rangle</math>

Is it possible to get this enabled? There's a basic guide here:

http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Enable_TeX

I've done stuff kinda like this before; it could be time-consuming or trivial depending on what kind of server you've got set up. Just curious if this could be fixed. It's more than a little weird being on a site that talks about science and logic, and only having HTML to work with, but I know you guys are busy, so it's not a huge deal if that's all we've got.

== Christhiru is a Dick ==

I've never used wiki software before so I'm not sure if this is the right place to posit this, but every change the user Christhiru has made needs to be undone and his account needs to be banned. He basically deletes entire, valid, well formed, articles and occasionally adds a link to his sh*tty apologist blog. I have no idea how to go about undoing his many changes to the site or how to launch some kind of formal complaint, but Christhiru is a dick and he needs to be stopped ASAP.

== FF searchplugin ==

I've been trying to work out how to make an Iron Chariots searchplugin for firefox for the last few hours to no avail. Can you help me or defer to someone who could help me? I think it would also be a good idea to add an autodiscovery feature to the site just so people can 'add' the site to the search bar.

== Secularism and Xianity ==

Sorry for posting this on this talk page, but for some reason I cannot use the forum - I tried numerous times, used different names, but still it never allows me in. Anyway, Im here for some help. Over the years, I have heard from many Christians that their religion is responsible for creating many things (reason, science, democracy, morality, ect.) and I am sure we have heard some form of it once. For this, I recently created the article [[Christianity invented science]] and explained why it is wrong. I chose this one because it is growing in the conservative academia and Christian apologetic literature. However, there is just one more topic I want to address, the delusion that Christianity invented secularism. I would not bother with this unless it was no growing as well, but I see it very frequently. Anyway, I know we already have a article on separation of church and state, but I wanted to know if I should create an entirely new article refuting the stance that secularism is a Christian idea and separation of church and state was invented to keep government out of religion and not the other way around. What should I do? [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 15:35, 12 September 2011 (CDT)

:You probably should have read the instructions in the [http://forum.ironchariots.org/viewtopic.php?t=278 access request forum]. Anyway, I've added Feredir28 to the member group, I'm assuming that's you. [[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 12:52, 13 September 2011 (CDT)

::Thank you, I shall move this topic to the forum. Pardons for not noticing that page. Yes, I'm Feredir. Again, thank you. [[User:Feredir28|Wolf]] 14:08, 13 September 2011 (CDT)

== Ray Comfort ==

Have you plans to write a refutation of Ray Comfort’s views? [[Talk:Ray Comfort#"Favorite arguments" section|Two users are concerned]]. [[User:Proxima Centauri|Proxima Centauri]] 03:08, 4 November 2011 (CDT)
Yeah, have there been any more advances on that? Oh and Kazim? we need another plug for iron chariots on the Non-Prophets....and congrats on the wedding!I made a [[Rick Perry]] page,and it has something on it about a group called the New Apostolic Reformation you should read...the youtube video I linked to summarizing it was rather good, it would be humorous on the show.....
[[User:WhatsAGoodUsername?|WhatsAGoodUsername?]]

User talk:Proxima Centauri

2011-11-14T05:15:28Z

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User talk:Proxima Centauri

2011-11-12T23:52:46Z

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User talk:Proxima Centauri

2011-11-12T08:07:15Z

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User talk:Proxima Centauri

2011-11-11T02:48:13Z

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User talk:Proxima Centauri

2011-11-11T02:46:55Z

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What about all the good things religion has given us?

2011-11-10T08:31:59Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* Counter-apologetics */

{{argument-stub}}
Religious [[apologist]]s often argue that [[religion]] does good; that religious people and institutions help the needy, or created great works of art or science; therefore, religion is a good thing.

== Examples ==
William Donohue, head of the Catholic League, [http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1879 writes]:
{{Quote|It was the Catholic Church that created the first universities, and it was the Catholic Church that played a central role in the Scientific Revolution}}

Arthur C. Brooks, at Stanford's Hoover Institution, [http://www.hoover.org/publications/policyreview/3447051.html writes]:
{{Quote|The differences in charity between secular and religious people are dramatic. Religious people are 25 percentage points more likely than secularists to donate money (91 percent to 66 percent) and 23 points more likely to volunteer time (67 percent to 44 percent). And, consistent with the findings of other writers, these data show that practicing a religion is more important than the actual religion itself in predicting charitable behavior. For example, among those who attend worship services regularly, 92 percent of Protestants give charitably, compared with 91 percent of Catholics, 91 percent of Jews, and 89 percent from other religions.}}

== Counter-apologetics ==
=== What is the argument? ===
Assuming for the sake of argument that religious beliefs cause people to be better, this does not imply that those beliefs are true.

In other words, "religion gives us good things, therefore religion is good" is an argument for the usefulness of religion, not its truth.

=== What is the causality? ===
Is there something about religion that causes people to do good things? Or are the good things attributed to religion due to some other cause?

For instance, in a community that is 75% Catholic, one would expect about 75% of all good deeds to be done by Catholics, all else being equal.

=== What about the Dark Ages? ===
Christianity caused the dark ages, and Muslim extremism is doing the same in the middle east right now, so the fact that the catholic church set up the first universities is irrelevant.
=== Is religion, on balance, a good thing? ===
Religious institutions also often do bad things, such as opposing the teaching of [[evolution]] in schools or promoting the spread of AIDS by denigrating the use of condoms. Therefore, we must ask ourselves whether, on balance, religion is a good thing or not.

[[Ray Comfort]] openly admits that his style of Christianity makes followers less happy in this world, below is just one of many times he has said that.
<blockquote>But there is no Biblical precedent for a message of life improvement upon conversion. None. In fact the Bible says you will have trials, tribulations temptation, persecution. [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=RidZHDO8SMgC&pg=PA95&lpg=PA95&dq=there+will+be+trials+and+hardships%2Bray+comfort&source=bl&ots=-Eu5V73XOu&sig=Fg0Z-R8iYbOwY9rVxOhurqCu960&hl=en&ei=AI2QTuGoOYW98gOKuIgP&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false] </blockquote>

Other Christian apologists are less willing to admit that they reduce happiness. Many social problems are worse in the United States [http://liberapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Bible_Belt#Bible_Belt_Statistics Bible belt] than in other parts of the United States and religious fundamentalism is strong there. Statistics are less easy to find in other parts of the world where fundamentalists are not collected together in the same place but similar problems are likely to be associated with fundamentalism elsewhere.

One should not assume without evidence that religion, particularly fundamentalist religion makes people happy.

=== Is religious charity selfless? ===
One must remember that when a religious person does charity, they may be doing this for a reward, such as [[heaven]], if applicable to the religion in question. Many people act out on the word of God, to impress God. Many are not doing these good deeds out of the kindness of their heart, but for eternity in heaven. American [[Christian]] [[fundamentalism|fundamentalists]] of the [[Religious right]] give small amounts of money to charity, they feel good about this and imagine it will help them get to heaven. At the same time they vote and campaign against political parties that promote tax funded initiatives with potential to help poor people far more than voluntary charity can do. Small scale charitable giving is a smokescreen that seeks to prevent the religious right and the public at large seeing how far the Republican religious style of politics is actually harming poor Americans.

=== Dodging the issue ===
If brought up with reference to Atheism, this response may be a dodge. Atheists may just as well do good, so as an argument against atheism it misses relevancy.

This is part of the common misconception that: Atheism has bearings on topics other than the lack of belief in deities. And at the same time the misconception that: without religion, there can be no moral standards.
Thus, the apologist who responds with this dodge probably believes that the Atheist cannot have moral standards as he/she has no religion.

Furthermore Atheism is not equivalent to lack of morality. Although religion may promote morality, it is fallible to say that therefore Atheism promotes lack of morality. Morality is an issue of the individual not of an institution, thus Atheists and Theists have the same capacity of being moral or immoral as they both choose which morals to include in their lives.

The idea that morality is originally based on religion is frequently heard from apologists in debates and conversations. Some of the reasons for this belief can be that,
* one cannot imagine a world without religion
* one imagines the world to be barbaric without his/hers religion (Indians, Vikings, etc. Essentially societies that one believes were barbaric)
* the scripture speaks a lot of morals and laws, and one assumes that the world must have been without morals and laws before the scripture
* animals cannot read, and they act like animals

The reality is that morality is intrinsic to animals. Charles Darwin refers to this as altruism. Morality is basically a product of natural selection, and homo sapiens is far from the only species to exhibit this behaviour that we have labelled as "goodness".

It's also important to note the difference between ethics (more universal views of what is right or wrong - developed namely through cultural evolution) and morality (culturally-based views of what is right or wrong). Morals are not always ethical, and it is quite arguable that many religious morals are anything but ethical.

=== What about all the good things Nazism gave? ===
They
* put a stop to massive unemployment;
* ended hyper-inflation;
* restored the self-esteem of the German people (for a few years till the defeat in 1945);
* built the Autobahn;
* laid the technological foundations for modern utilisation of space;
* forced the world to rethink international relations to such an extent that much of Europe has enjoyed peace for over 65 years.

Surely with so many positive outcomes we ought to overlook a few minor unpleasantries?

''There has been genocide which the perpetrators tried to justify through various religious arguments so the comparison with Nazism appears reasonable. The genocide in Croatia during the 2nd World War when [[Roman Catholic]]s and [[Muslim]]s participated is just one example.'' [http://www.fantompowa.net/Flame/yugoslavia_catholic_church.htm]

[[Category:Arguments]]
[[Category:Arguments for belief]]
[[Category:Non-arguments for the existence of God]]

Ben Stein

2011-11-10T07:30:13Z

WhatsAGoodUsername?: /* External links */

{{stub}}
'''Ben Stein''' is a creationist, economist, and actor who narrated the movie ''[[Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed]], a "documentary" (if it can be called that) about evolution. He claims this "documentary" was "extensively researched" over a two-year period, but he claims evolution is "lightning striking a mud puddle", even though evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life, it only explains the diversity of life. If he had done more than 10 minutes of research about evolution he would know this, so he is obviously lying about his research on evolution. ''.

==External links==
{{wikipedia}}

[[Category:People|S]]
[[Category:Apologists|S]]

[http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiNGK3y5Ypg&feature=relmfu A video showing Ben Stein's ignorance]

User talk:Proxima Centauri

2011-11-09T10:11:11Z

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User talk:Proxima Centauri

2011-11-09T10:06:37Z

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User talk:Proxima Centauri

2011-11-09T10:05:56Z

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