Iron Chariots Wiki - User contributions [en]

User talk:Dcljr

2007-06-29T13:20:54Z

Narmical: /* Hares Chew Cud */

Please remember to sign your comments with four tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>). - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 03:47, 26 August 2006 (MST)

==Welcome==
Welcome! I'll be busy with the NP show today, but I wanted to get a quick response in. I looked over the issues in your sandbox and it's nice to have someone who knows about wikis, I've been learning as we go along. With regard to the redlinks issues: some of them I wasn't aware of, and some I intentionally avoided editing (like help) until I knew exactly what I wanted to include. Feel free to edit those pages as you like and, as time permits, I'll focus on them too.

Some answers to questions in your "Other Issues" section:
* Is there an [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Interwiki_map interwiki map] here?
** <s>No. I had actually just started reading about this the other day. It's definitely on the "to do" list, though there are only a handful of wikis that I'd bother including here.</s>
** Evidently, it's always been enabled and there were 174 links in the default list. I've added them to the discussion page and will find a way to modify those pages to have a "most used" list, "full list" and "suggested" list. - [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 18:15, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
* <s>Why are sig timestamps in MST when server time is UTC according to [[Special:Preferences|Preferences]]?</s>
** <s>I have no clue. I'll dig around a bit.</s>
** This should be corrected now. - [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 17:22, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
* Why using <nowiki>[[internal links]]</nowiki> to bolden title words in first sentences of articles (see, e.g., [[Counter-apologetics]]) instead of <nowiki>'''triple-apostrophes'''</nowiki>?
** Because we saw it done that way...and didn't check the manual of style. :) This should be probably be changed, though I'm curious whether or not it's a better solution.
* [[Special:Search/fubar|Search for "fubar"]] results in following statement (provided by [[MediaWiki:Nogomatch]]): ''There is no page titled ":fubar".'' (note placement of colon)
** I'll look into this one too, I'm pretty sure that it's due to changes we attempted to make when setting up the wiki. Essentially, I wanted the URL to display as '''wiki.ironchariots.org/pagename'''. Shawn ran into some problems with, I think, the Apache rewrite...I just haven't focused on changing it.
** Still investigating this, it's an odd one. - [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 17:22, 6 September 2006 (CDT)
As for the other items, feel free to change them, and anything else you find wrong. If the reason for the change is unclear or if you feel there's a gross conceptual error that should be avoided, perhaps you could add them to a list in the Help section, or something. In any case, I'm off to get things ready for the show, thanks for contributing! - [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 09:06, 26 August 2006 (MST)

== Wow ==

Dcljr, I'm blown away by all that you're doing to bring this wiki up to speed with a professional look. Thank you thank you thank you for all the work that you've done this weekend. --[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 04:20, 28 August 2006 (MST)

Hey, I just remembered something that we wanted to put in a while ago. We were going to have a template that linked Bible verses. I was just messing with it again and it currently looks like this: <nowiki>{{Bible|John|3:16}}</nowiki> -> {{Bible|John|3:16}}

The problem is that when you use a book with spaces in it, such as <nowiki>{{Bible|1 Kings|1:1}}</nowiki> it looks like this: {{Bible|1 Kings|1:1}}. The extra space messes up the intended link. Is there a way to replace spaces in the second field with "%20"?

--[[User:Kazim|Kazim]] 08:19, 28 August 2006 (MST)

: Hmm. I don't know, I'd have to just look around Wikipedia to find out (which, unfortunately, I'm not going to do right now — I need to get to sleep at some point). I know it'd be a lot easier if you were linking to a wiki (with interwiki linking enabled — Matt's apparently looking into that), since then you wouldn't be constructing the URL "from scratch" but just using a wiki-link, where spaces don't matter. (Even "blind searches" can be done this way, using <nowiki>[[Special:Search/</nowiki>''Search term(s)'']]. BTW, this would fix the problem you've had with {{[[Template:WP-name|WP-name]]}}.) Might have more to say about this in a few days... - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 03:11, 29 August 2006 (MST)

:: Well it turns out that there is another wiki called "[http://www.wikibible.com/ wikibible]" -- which appears to just provide a search function for Bible Gateway, but it might work. I've heard you talk about interwiki links but I have no knowledge of how to set them up.

::: I've been researching this and it's going to take some work. There is no easy, automated process, you have to actually jump into the database and modify tables in order to setup the links. The nice thing is that it doesn't matter whether the link is a wiki or not, you could setup an interwiki link to Bible Gateway or Dictionary.com. I'll probably do this, but let's put together a list of what we want/need first. -- [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 10:20, 29 August 2006 (MST)

:::: I've set up a page at [[Project:Interwiki map]] to start hammering out the details. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 17:28, 29 August 2006 (MST)

== Admin page ==
The entries there are fine. Indefual hasn't been around, but I think his primary interest was in getting this up and running for us. - [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 09:05, 28 August 2006 (MST)

Speaking of the admin page, you'll need to update it again - I've added you as a sysop. I have a new project at work which is keeping me busy and preventing me from doing much work on the wiki, at least for the next week or so. Considering your knowledge and contributions, it just made sense that you shouldn't have to wait around for me if something needs to be done. Hopefully this status change, is acceptable, I probably should have asked first - but it's easy to change. -- [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 08:42, 30 August 2006 (MST)
:No, that's fine. Thanks. On larger wikis (especially the large Wikimedia ones) I tend to resist becoming an admin (in fact, I'm only an admin on one other, low-traffic, non-Wikimedia wiki) because I don't really want the additional responsibility that comes with the additional power(s). But this wiki is still pretty low-key (i.e., no disputes, vandalism, etc., to speak of), so it should be okay.... - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 14:31, 30 August 2006 (MST)

==Interwiki comments==
You wrote, on my [[User_talk:Sans_Deity|talk]] page (sorry for the cross-page discussion, this was just the quickest way to get a response out before I head to work):
{{quote|Please compare these links to the default links listed on the talk page and modify/remove from this list." I'd like to respectfully object for the following reasons: Each wiki is free to use their own list of interwiki links and I've never liked some of the choices made by other sites (/ MediaWiki maintainers), especially metawikipedia — a perfectly horrible choice, if you ask me. In the list I started I was trying to use "logical", "obvious" prefixes. Maybe I misunderstood your note, but it sounds like you're preferring to stick to the default choices listed on the talk page.}}
For clarification (and I'll try to get some work done on this later today), the list that appears there is the default list which exists in the database when the wiki is installed. As it turns out, the interwiki function has always been enabled for each of the sites in that list. I'll probably delete some of the ones on that list, but here's what I think needs to be done, at a minimum:
<div style="text-decoration:line-through">
* The main [[Project:Interwiki map]] page should:
** Describe the interwiki function and include a table of available/most common/recommended shortcuts
** Include a link to the "full map" [[Project:Interwiki map (full)]] (which may be smaller than the current list, as some defaults should be removed)
* A new page, perhaps [[Project:Interwiki map (requests)]] should be created and, essentially, take the purpose and content of the current [[Project:Interwiki map]] page (a place to request new links - and a place to note those that should be removed)
* For each of the current recommended/suggested sites:
** If it already exists on the default table, that needs to be noted and:
*** We need to decide whether or not it's "ok as is" or whether it needs to have a different shortcut
** If it doesn't exist, it should live on the [[Project:Interwiki map (requests)]] page until added
</div>
::: All of this has been set up, though changes may need to be made - [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 11:24, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
That's what I was thinking, in a nutshell. - [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 09:30, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

== Latin or English nomenclature ==

A while back, there was [[Talk:Argumentum ad baculum]] a bit of a discussion, and it was decided that logical fallacies should be kept under their formal (usually Latin) name, and that English synonyms should be redirects to the Latin page.

I'm not fundamentally opposed to changing the rule, but I'd like for there to be consistency.
--[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 14:08, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

:Consistency was the goal. In some cases, it may be argued that the formal name is the more popular version. In some sense, it doesn't make any difference where the article lives as the redirects essentially make them equivalent. The only place where this becomes truly problematic is when we're looking at a page on logical fallacies that links to all of them, or the appropriate category page. On an article page, I think I'd actually prefer a list that links to the formal name and includes the common name in parentheses, for clarity. The category page seems to be the only sticking point. I'm wondering if a redirect page could also have the category link - so that the category page has a link to both articles, even though one simply redirects to the other? -- [[User:Sans Deity|Sans Deity]] 16:22, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

:: Putting redirects in categories seems like the best solution, IMHO, if it works. Kind of like an index that lists synonyms of a concept. --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 16:29, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

:: Yup, it works. I guess I should start categorizing redirects, unless someone can whip up a bot to do that. --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 16:32, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

::: I think we can go with manual categorizing, since there should only be a small number of cases where it's necessary. Follow-ups on this topic should perhaps be dealt with on [[Project talk:Categorization]]? - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 20:36, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

:::: I'm a big fan of automation. Perhaps in an ideal world there'd be a magic template for redirects, call it <nowiki>{{Synonym}}</nowiki>, that means, "fix the categories for this redirect to be the same as whatever it points to". But you're correct that at least for now, there are few enough cases that they can be maintained manually.
:::: This is slightly nontrivial in that we don't want all redirects to appear in the category listings: as discussed above, it'd be good for both "[[Petitio principii]]" and "[[Begging the question]]" to appear in a category listing, but we don't want to do that with, say, "[[God]]", "[[Deity]]", and "[[Deities]]". (I guess this is a lot of words to say that we're basically in agreement.) --[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 11:44, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

== Question about categories ==

I noticed that you put [[Religion]] in <nowiki>[[Category:Religion|*]]</nowiki>.
As I understand it,adding a pipe and a sort string tells MediaWiki to alphabetize according to the sort string. So adding <tt>|*</tt> tells it to put [[Religion]] in the "*" tab of the index.
Is that what you intended to do? If so, why put it under "*" instead of leaving it under "R"?
--[[User:Arensb|Arensb]] 15:40, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

== Hares Chew Cud ==

Should i just manualy format the referances? or just wait for a <nowiki><ref></nowiki> tag to be implimented? {{unsigned|Narmical}}
: Replied on [[User talk:Narmical|your talk page]]. - [[User:Dcljr|dcljr]] 12:11, 27 June 2007 (CDT)
::Well i have a version saved on my computer that doesnt use the template, so no biggie [[User:Narmical|Narmical]] 08:20, 29 June 2007 (CDT)

Penn Jillette

2007-06-26T14:29:31Z

Narmical:

'''Penn Jillette''' (born March 5, 1955, in Greenfield, Massachussets) is the taller, more vocal half of comedy [[magic]] act Penn & Teller. He has been an outspoken [[atheist]] and champion of [[freethinker]] causes for thirty years.

Recently Jillette was featured on [[Wikipedia:National Public Radio|NPR]]'s ''[[Wikipedia:This I Believe|This I Believe]]'' program, where he laid out his convictions in no uncertain terms:
{{quote|This I believe: I believe there is no [[God]]. Having taken that step, it informs every moment of my life. I'm not greedy. I have love, blue skies, rainbows and Hallmark cards, and that has to be enough. It has to be enough. But it's everything in the world, and everything in the world is plenty for me.}}
For more, see [[There Is No God]].

Jillette and his partner, [[Teller]], have expressed distaste for many traditional magic acts; they believe these acts insult audiences by pretending the magic is real.

The cable TV show ''[[Bullshit!]]'', which Penn & Teller produce and host, is in its fourth season on [[Wikipedia:Showtime|Showtime]]. The show attempts to entertain while exposing frauds, debunking [[myth]]s and slaying sacred cows. Show topics have included [[ESP]], [[cryptozoology]], alternative medicine, [[creationism]], [[ghost]] hunters and alien abductions. In one of the more controversial episodes, ''Holier than Thou'', the show was critical of [[Wikipedia:Mahatma Gandhi|Mahatma Gandhi]], the [[Wikipedia:Dalai Lama|Dalai Lama]] and [[Wikipedia:Mother Theresa|Mother Theresa]], who they claimed spent donated funds on missionary work rather than health care facilities. The program has been nominated for six [[Wikipedia:Emmy award|Emmys]] and praised by critics and freethinkers alike.

Jillette also hosted an hour-long radio show, five days a week, broadcast out of his home in Las Vegas. The show is no longer broadcast. Penn cited the desire to spend more time with his family as the reason for canceling the show.

==External links==
* [http://www.pennandteller.com/ Penn & Teller home page]
* [http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5015557 Jillette's ''This I Believe'' segment]

[[Category:Atheists|Jillette, Penn]]

User talk:Dcljr

2007-06-26T14:27:36Z

Narmical: Hares Chew Cud

Hares chew their cud

2007-06-14T13:01:13Z

Narmical:

[[Hares chew their cud]] is a reference to a passage in the [[Christian]] [[Bible]]:

:''"(6)And every beast that parteth the hoof, and cleaveth the cleft into two claws, and cheweth the cud among the beasts, that ye shall eat. (7)Nevertheless these ye shall not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel, and the '''hare''', and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof; therefore they are unclean unto you."''
: Deuteronomy 14:6-7

Hares (rabbits), do not chew their cud and this is commonly used as an example of where the Bible contradicts science.

==Apologetics==
Apologists commonly respond that this is a non-issue for the following reasons:
* Ancient authors didn't have the benefit of modern taxonomy
* Rabbits are pseudo-ruminants who, instead of actually chewing their cud, expel their food and eat the resultant fecal matter

==Counter-Apologetics==
* If the Bible is the inspired word of God, we wouldn't expect to see mistakes of this nature. Surely the omniscient God described in the Bible could have inspired a passage which would never directly contradict scientific knowledge.
* Additionally, the entire section concerning which animals can be used for food is absurd and, as it is no longer considered by Christians to be a binding law of God, represents an example of an "unchanging" God who changes his mind
* At the time of the King James translation the English word "coney" usually referred to the European rabbit. This species was native only to the Iberian Peninsula and France and thus can't be the "hare" or "coney" referred to in these verses. The Hebrew word ''shaphan'', here translated as "coney" or "hare", is better translated as "hyrax". The hyrax is a small burrowing mammal superficially similar to a hare but which is actually a distant relative of the elephant. Though the hyrax doesn't chew the cud, its mouth ''is'' constantly moving. This movement is used to smell for danger but could easily be misconstrued as chewing the cud. Note that, while "hyrax" is currently the best translation for ''shaphan'' (indeed, many modern translations make a note of this) it still doesn't resolve the problem. The bible still lists this animal as chewing the cud.

==Quotes==

Rabbits and [[Intelligent Design]]
:''"I think that everyone who thinks that intelligent design is a good idea should look at rabbits. They should notice that the rabbit actually eats its own fecal pellets. The reason it does that is that rabbits, like cows, have an internal rumen-type storage area where bacteria break down food that the rabbit can't break down itself. But unlike cows, in the rabbit that pouch is on the wrong end of the intestine. The food goes through the intestine, then it gets broken down by the bacteria, then the rabbit has to eat it again to get the nutritional value. Now, if that's intelligent design. . ."''
: [[Andrew Knoll]] - professor of Natural History at Harvard University

==References==

[http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/jan00.html What is the ''Shaphan''?] at talkorigins.org

[[Category:Biblical criticism]]

Hares chew their cud

2007-06-14T13:00:43Z

Narmical: added some referances from scholarly journals

[[Hares chew their cud]] is a reference to a passage in the [[Christian]] [[Bible]]:

:''"(6)And every beast that parteth the hoof, and cleaveth the cleft into two claws, and cheweth the cud among the beasts, that ye shall eat. (7)Nevertheless these ye shall not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel, and the '''hare''', and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof; therefore they are unclean unto you."''
: Deuteronomy 14:6-7

Hares (rabbits), do not chew their cud and this is commonly used as an example of where the Bible contradicts science. All genera of rabbits, hares,
<ref>{{cite journal |last=Hamiliton |first=W.J. Jr. |year=1955 |title=Coprophagy in the swamp rabbit |journal=Journal of Mammology |volume=36 |pages=303-304}}</ref>
<ref>{{cite journal |last=Kirkpatrick |first=Charles M. |year=1956 |title=Coprophagy in the cottontail |journal=Journal of Mammology |volume=37 |pages=300}}</ref>
<ref>{{cite journal |last=Lechleitner |first=R.R. |year=1957 |title=Reingestion in the black-tailed jack rabbit |journal=Journal of Mammology |volume=38 |pages=481-485}}</ref>
<ref>{{cite journal |last=McBee |first=Richard H. |year=1971 |title=Significance of intestinal microflora in herbivory |journal=Review of Ecology and Systematics |volume=2 |pages=165-176}}</ref>
<ref>{{cite journal |last=Watson |first=J.S. |coauthor=Taylor, R.H. |year=1955 |title=Reingestion in the hare Lepus europaeus |journal=Science |volume=121 |pages=314}}</ref> and the hyrax<ref>{{cite journal |last=McBee |first=Richard H. |year=1971 |title=Significance of intestinal microflora in herbivory |journal=Review of Ecology and Systematics |volume=2 |pages=165-176}}</ref> do not chew cud. They eat there own feces to acomplish the same goal that cud chewing does in ruminants.
==Apologetics==
Apologists commonly respond that this is a non-issue for the following reasons:
* Ancient authors didn't have the benefit of modern taxonomy
* Rabbits are pseudo-ruminants who, instead of actually chewing their cud, expel their food and eat the resultant fecal matter

==Counter-Apologetics==
* If the Bible is the inspired word of God, we wouldn't expect to see mistakes of this nature. Surely the omniscient God described in the Bible could have inspired a passage which would never directly contradict scientific knowledge.
* Additionally, the entire section concerning which animals can be used for food is absurd and, as it is no longer considered by Christians to be a binding law of God, represents an example of an "unchanging" God who changes his mind
* At the time of the King James translation the English word "coney" usually referred to the European rabbit. This species was native only to the Iberian Peninsula and France and thus can't be the "hare" or "coney" referred to in these verses. The Hebrew word ''shaphan'', here translated as "coney" or "hare", is better translated as "hyrax". The hyrax is a small burrowing mammal superficially similar to a hare but which is actually a distant relative of the elephant. Though the hyrax doesn't chew the cud, its mouth ''is'' constantly moving. This movement is used to smell for danger but could easily be misconstrued as chewing the cud. Note that, while "hyrax" is currently the best translation for ''shaphan'' (indeed, many modern translations make a note of this) it still doesn't resolve the problem. The bible still lists this animal as chewing the cud.

==Quotes==

Rabbits and [[Intelligent Design]]
:''"I think that everyone who thinks that intelligent design is a good idea should look at rabbits. They should notice that the rabbit actually eats its own fecal pellets. The reason it does that is that rabbits, like cows, have an internal rumen-type storage area where bacteria break down food that the rabbit can't break down itself. But unlike cows, in the rabbit that pouch is on the wrong end of the intestine. The food goes through the intestine, then it gets broken down by the bacteria, then the rabbit has to eat it again to get the nutritional value. Now, if that's intelligent design. . ."''
: [[Andrew Knoll]] - professor of Natural History at Harvard University

==References==
{{reflist}}
[http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/jan00.html What is the ''Shaphan''?] at talkorigins.org

[[Category:Biblical criticism]]